Mad river explorer 15 rx

I specifically contradict you.
I have not called you an idiot. Now, if you felt like an idiot after the points I made, that’s your problem.

Note that my saying, “Only an idiot…” is NOT the same as saying YOU are an idiot.

Oh, and as for the profile… I don’t
post one here because I do not care for the stupid “head” icon. That’s the only reason.

I am a licensed psychologist living in Atlanta. I have been paddling since 1973. I was editor of the Georgia Canoeing Association’s newsletter from 1979 until 1991. I have kayaks and canoes. I paddle things mostly of middle difficulty. I will be 64 years old in December.

On Boatertalk, I am known as ezwater, and I am considered average in “niceness.” It is a mystery to me why people on pnet are so easily hurt. Actual perusal of what I have said will not explain it.

Speaking as a psychologist, how am I supposed to deal with someone who is overly concerned with gelcoat scratches? “There, there, have a tissue…”

All false accusations. Question is, are
you and a few others actually ganging up to accuse me of things I have not done?

to those that were born knowing it all
yes Im a newbie, But all were newbies at some point. If you were offended by me calling you a smartass thats your problem. Im sure alot of people on this board know what I mean when I ask is this a stable canoe? But I guess some are just to stupid to get it.

Why don’t you check the following
threads on this board right now?

“High angle kayak…”

“Paluski flatwater…”

“Paddle care…”

“Canoe material and design”

“Canoe for wife and me”

“Solo/tandem canoes”

See if you find what you accuse me of.

OK, guys, help me out. Name some
general purpose canoes that are “stable,” and some that are not. Note that my original point was that new canoeists should paddle kneeling, an approach that makes any canoe feel much more stable.

Ok IM new but
SInce this thread started Ive Used an Old Town CAnoe and an older Perception and I bought the Mad River That I was asking about. The perception was not nearly as stable as the Old Town and The Mad River Is a little better.

Canoe kneeling rules
Dogma dogma…

The beauty of canoeing that it is adaptable to sitting too and having your feet in a normal "sitting in the chair " position.

Of course kneeling is more stable but most newcomers do not take to that right away.

If the wife wants to sit, let her sit. She may well come to love canoeing and explore kneeling and maybe go on to advanced quiet water. I suggest putting her in the stern seat. If she can see what is going on it may quell her concerns. I have had quite a few gal students who had the same concerns. Every bobble was magnified because from the bow seat the action behind wasn’t visible.

Many people dont want to kneel and there are some who CANT kneel. Lets get with the program!

My first boat was a Grumman 15. It went to BWCA and Quetico, and then we got old. We still have it. Initial stability like a rock, secondary like a rock (but maybe thats because I have good balance rail to the water). Theoretically bad secondary stability in waves. Portaged like a rock.

Isnt the Web great? Its not about exchanging information. Its about POWER!

Grummans seem to do fine in waves.
I remember a harrowing whitecap crossing of Agnes Lake in Quetico when our 18.5’, shallow-arched, flared bow Moore was plunging like a battleship on Victory at Sea.

Not far behind us were two guys in a Grumman 15. I thought they would swamp. But they got to the lee shore, and said they took little water. Of course, they were kneeling, just as we were.

We all know that birchbark canoes are the closest ancestors to the canoes we use now. The folks that devised them, and built them in many forms, usually paddled kneeling. That’s only sensible in narrow craft.

Europeans do prefer sitting much of the time, and I like to sit too. HOWEVER, when my wife and I started paddling in '73, I followed the advice of the Red Cross and old guides like Bill Reviere. We knelt in any situation where flipping or boat control were an issue. Kneeling is the most effective position for boat control, and the most stable position. Sitting, if one is properly outfitted with a bent shaft paddle, is the best position for speed.

For those that can’t kneel, they can still have full and varied paddling careers. Or they can take up kayaking, as have some of my old buddies whose knees lost their tolerance for kneeling in latter life.

Which Perception canoe did you try
earlier? The one I remember was shaped very much like the old Blue Hole OCA. Maybe there were others I never saw. It was a LONG time ago that Perception made open canoes. Back in the 70s I think.

the perception was a chattooga
I think it was. It was 20 years old and the seats were at the very top of the rails and it had a very flat bottom. we did Kneel in it the entire 5 hour trip. it was fun but very hard on my Knees and ankles

Thank you g2d
The thread has taken on a much nicer tone, so it’s easy to see you have a lot to share, and it’s just as easy to see that newbies and the rest of us carry on a dialog with you when you’re nice.

So, rather than demand that the rest of us “prove” you are sometimes rude and premptive, why not go back and read your own posts and underline the words that hurt so you will recognize them in the future and refrain from using them as weapons.

In the meantime, I’m ready to debate you one on one in a separate thread so we don’t continue to hijack this one. Whenever you’re ready let’s open a new thread on B&B. We can start with your name and location, then we’ll be on equal playing field, eh?

No, sorry, I have a very good memory
for what I post. You need to read those posts over and decide why they bothered you so much.

Gee, Andy Lee, sorry I missed this one.
If you introduce newbies to whitewater, you will have them kneel. If you introduce them to flatwater, and then to the possibility of paddling in heavy whitecaps on a lake, you will have them kneel. Well, maybe you wouldn’t. I don’t hang around with ACA instructors, but I bet they would.

That you can stand in a Bell Prodigy X is no more illustrative than if you can pedal a bicycle while paddling backwards. A 17 foot MR Horizon is a lot more stable than any short WW boat like a Prodigy, but not as stable as, say, a Wenonah Spirit II. I reserve the right to be impressed by a guy who routinely fly fishes from a Horizon.

No general purpose canoe has a stability issue. This does not change the fact that canoes are narrow craft, and their users will benefit tremendously when they kneel in conditions that would tend to tip or swamp the boat.

Tell you what. I’ll race you on the slalom gates below the NOC store. Me kneeling in my MR Synergy, and you sitting in your Bell Prodigy X.

And if you can’t give specific examples of me “blowing newbies off the board,” just drop it.

maybe g2d could
just remeber to use a little more democracy and remeber that no one knows it all and everyone was new at some point. I also wish everyone would stop worrying about it. Im done with it. He and I seem to be able to be civil to one another so let it be

My wife won’t sit in bow seat.
Only the stern seat because she thinks the bow seat is too close to the water and whatever we might hit.

FWIW, she thinks our royalex Wenonah Solo Plus is quite stable on flatwater. She hasn’t tried rivers yet.

good point 98esten is a melting pot of ideas and opinions. We don’t always have to get along with each other, but I prefer to disagree agreeably:)

Here’s hoping you enjoy your Explorer 15. Did you get the Royalex or the TT?


Andy Lee

I got
I ended up getting the Royalex. It weighs about 58 pounds. I got Red. I will take some pictures of How I lowered the seats. I might do a How to if anyone would be interested.

Have fun! Good work on lowering seats.

Lowering seats

Maybe it would be good idea first just lower rear seat. Many people have done that in their Penobscot 16 canoe. I guess it helps.

Lowering bow seat may make harder to access water because of bow height and flare.