I’m getting ready to put in minicel foam foot braces. I came across a couple good back posts. Adding my reply to a back post didn’t pop it to the top. There must be a time limit on that. So I started this new post. There were a couple things I didn’t understand in the thread http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=387674
From Steve (Flatpick) – “leave a gap between the b/h for stretching. 1" is plenty.”
Does this mean hollow out the center of the new minicel bulkhead? The idea would be that your feet would be to the outside when paddling and bracing. Then you could move them to the center 1” hollowed out area to stretch. Is that right?
From Bnystrom – “I make additional pads in 1/2" and 1" thickness that I use to fine-tune the fit if I change footwear. They actually provide a fine adjustment than footpegs do. If I'm not sure what I'm going to need before I go out on the water, I just roll up the pads and stick them in one of the hatches.”
How do these pads stay in place? Sounds like these pads aren’t minicel if you can roll them up. I did see grayaks suggestion of using pieces of exercise floor mat.
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My boat is a Tempest 180. I already have a 3” minicel block cut out in the shape of the front bulkhead. I think I only need about another ½ to 1” to get to the right distance for my feet. I’m thinking, make or buy 15 degree wedges, near zero thickness at the top, then some mat material. Cut the wedge and matting to occupy just the outer 4.5” on each side, where my feet would be for paddling and bracing. Then hollow the middle out a little bit for a place to stretch my legs. If that makes sense, any ideas on non permanent ways to attach the wedge and mat? I’m not thinking so much about varying foot wear, but I’m heading down in weight, so I’m thinking I might need to add more ½” shims over time.
In just checking with my thumb, the minicel foam does compress, then recovers slowly (few seconds). I haven’t read of anyone complaining about lack of firmness for bracing, or energy transfer into the foam when bicycle pumping with the legs during paddling. No concerns there? Also, the foam doesn’t permanently compress after awhile?
Paul S.
Really Ain’t Complicated…
Use a layer approach. I prefer to use 1" thick minicell and build up. Some go right to the 3" thick pieces and build up.
Anyway, take a measurement of the inside area where you want to start. Shape a piece, insert, shape another and insert until you have the depth you need for a foot brace. I personally don't like having air space between bulk head and the foam. It just provides a space for more sand and water to collect.
On the last piece, where you feet touch, don't use whole piece across. Rather just enough on each side to place your feet, the middle of the built up brace will have room for you to stretch your feet/legs. Most folks also find more comfort when the feet pieces are canted about 15 or so degrees.
When you have all the pieces shaped to where you want it, glue all the pieces together into one big block. This will slide in and be jammed in and held in place by friction. You will find it hard to get the block out without some sort of aid. I found it useful to to install a small loop on the last two pieces of so with parachute cord or plastic zip tie. The loop is small and will not catch your feet but will all you to hook something in the loop and pull the whole block out when you need to.
Don't obsess about the perfect length. You can always add on or sand down to fine tune the fit to your leg length. (Thus the facility of installing a loop to pull the block out.)
sing
Simply…
I’ve just clamped two layers of minicell on the bulkhead. No adhesive. Plain surface, a small cut in the bottom to let the water out.
See
http://ostfriesland-entdecken.de/img/vela002.jpg
My padding setup
I use a minicel pad with a pair of wedges attached to it to provide a more natural forward angle for my feet. The adjustment pads are used between the main pad and the bulkhead, with the snug fit of the main pad holding them in place. They ARE minicel foam. In 1/2" and 1" thicknesses, it’s easy to roll Minicel pads up enough to fit in a hatch.
Warning…
I will be buying a Tempest 170 in the next few weeks and I was talking to the outfitter that I’m going to buy it from. The owner didn’t recommend adding the foam padding, because he said the bulkhead was not designed take that much pressure from your feet and there is a risk that the bulkhead can break loose. Seems like plenty of people have made this modification… anybody have this problem?
Simplicity
The 15 degree wedge is worth doing. A 3" section taken to near zero thickness at the top should do it.
The exercise mat (2’ x 2’ squares, not roll type) are great for last layer and (usually about) 1/2" increment adjustments. The textured surface on them handles abuse much better than raw foam.
It may take you a while to really dial in what’s right. For a while I swore I needed another 1/2" to 1" of foam when I’d begin a paddle. By the time I’d finish I was loosened up and it felt fine. If in doubt - paddle more. For me these were 10-20 mile test paddles where if something is off with outfitting - I’d notice. Quick paddles are poor tests except to get the basic setup. See #3 below.
Unlike most that have responded so far I prefer the entire surface be one piece for several reasons:
- Why limit yourself to set foot positions at sides? Seems like carrying limiting peg thinking over. With full surface I can switch to a centered foot position more like a racer, or a frog legged sea kayak position, or anything in between. I also have zero issues with foot placement when rolling/bracing. Not having to deal with pegs for reentry/rescue stuff is a joy in itself.
- Full size pieces can be cut to stay put with no glue. This makes adding removing pieces to fine tune or fit others a couple send thing. Caution - do not over cut by much as the foam WILL push your hull out and deform it/alter your lines. A little snugness goes a long way.
- Once you find the sweet spot you should find you can lock out your knees to stretch - and go to a flexed knee/foot active paddling position from that same depth of foam. This eliminates any need for a center cutout. I had assumed I needed some sort of cut out recess before doing the foam too. I haven’t.
I’d recommend doing it solid first. you can always get more complicated and cut and glue things later.
Add a small drain channel at the bottom - and maybe along the center of the piece on the bulkhead. Fast drying means no mildew (which doesn’t seem to like my foam so far - but I put the boat up salty a lot which deters it too).
Depends on the bulkhead
Brit boats are generally good to go.
My QCC has a fairly thin composite wall glued in - but the glue and construction method they use is INSANELY STRONG and the foam spreads to force over the whole surface.
I would recommend caution with foam bulkheads.
Our WS Sparrow hawk has foam bulkheads (why?) so we take our chances. Kim needs a good bit of foam, and I think multiple layers can reduce the strain on the bulkhead if they are well cut.
I got a similar warning
Dave, is yours fiberglass?
I got a similar but milder warning from the shop where I bought my boat. He said to be careful on hard beach landings to not push hard on the foam as it could push out the bulkhead. It’s not double glassed. I am concerned but gonna try it anyway; the foam that is, not the hard beach landings for awhile.
Any ideas anyone on eliminating or reducing the pressure on the bulkhead, other than press fit?
Paul S.
speaking of minicell…
where is the best place to get the stuff? (somewhere online, i’m guessing.)
i’m looking for some to make blocks for my rack so i can cartop right-side up. (i wrecked one of the precut ones i bought trying to cut it to fit over the rail.)
pstivers, thanks for (re)starting this thread and including the old link. i need to research a bit of this stuff, too. 
michelle
RM…
No, the boat I’m planning on buying is a rm, not glass. I was considering making a bulkhead support out of okoume plywood and/or fiberglass. I was going to place the board inside the front hatch area and attach the board to the boat using brackets and 4 bolts through the hull. Two bolts on the side and two through the top of the hull. I’m not sure if this is overkill, but it would provide support to the bulkhead no matter how hard you push with your feet.
Back minicell
Hi
Have anybody made a pice of foam to put behimd your seat? to empty water from the yak easyer?
regards
Propel
I guess
the cross sectional area of the boat doesn’t change that much when you move the main pad aft 0.5 - 1". I would have thought the main pad wouldn’t stay put at that point. Great though. That’s the first thing I’ll try if I need to add shims later.
Paul S.
A few more questions.
I know this isn’t rocket science, but I’m interested in what others have done.
- What kind of glue do you use to glue the minicel layers together.
- With the 15 degree angle on the surface, when paddling and bracing, do you still place just the ball of your feet on the minicel, or do you now place your entire foot, ball and heal, on the minicel. I think I read somewhere that you don’t really want to get your heal into the brace when rolling.
- In case you care to comment on my tool selection. I’m just using the hand tools I have around the house. I have this tool that’s like a long narrow cheese grater with a handle, only for wood. It seems pretty good for shaving the mincel down. It does leave the minicel surface kind of shredded and rough. I figure I’ll finish with sand paper and a wood block.
I’m using a rasp (very rough wood file), rounded on one side, to grind grooves. I used a cross cut saw to make a V, then rounded it up with the rasp.
For additional layers, for the first cut to shape, I plan to use one of those “bow saws” with the really narrow blades. Sort of a hand band saw. I’ll also try a keyhole saw to see which works better.
Thanks for all your help.
Paul S.
It’s A Good Idea
if you don’t mind giving up storage in that area for something like a water bottle or a pump. angle the piece up, with the bottom being narrower than the top. The top should almost be flush with your coaming. When you do a rescue, and the boat is lifted up to drain, the water will slide down and clear the coaming. Very little trapped water left behind.
The pump holder can be installed beneath the foredeck. Even with the back wedge in place, you still have room to fit a rolled up paddlefloat.
sing
Misc…
1. What kind of glue do you use to glue the minicel layers together.
Can (red label) of Weldwood dap cement More boats you have, the more you will want to have a can of this and spare minicell in your workshop.
2. With the 15 degree angle on the surface, when paddling and bracing, do you still place just the ball of your feet on the minicel, or do you now place your entire foot, ball and heal, on the minicel. I think I read somewhere that you don’t really want to get your heal into the brace when rolling.
The 15 degree will provide a resting surface for your whole foot. Less tiring on a long paddle. When you brace or roll, if your technique is right, you will automatically apply pressure to balls and toes of your feet.
3. In case you care to comment on my tool selection. I’m just using the hand tools I have around the house. I have this tool that’s like a long narrow cheese grater with a handle, only for wood. It seems pretty good for shaving the mincel down. It does leave the minicel surface kind of shredded and rough. I figure I’ll finish with sand paper and a wood block.
What you’re using is probably a Stanley Sureform tool. That is what most folks will use, along with rasps, to quickly shape minicell. You can finish with sand paper. Actually that suede like finished texture is less slippery than a perfectly smooth finish.
“I’m using a rasp (very rough wood file), rounded on one side, to grind grooves. I used a cross cut saw to make a V, then rounded it up with the rasp.
For additional layers, for the first cut to shape, I plan to use one of those “bow saws” with the really narrow blades. Sort of a hand band saw. I’ll also try a keyhole saw to see which works better.”
The more tools you have at your disposal the better. Depending on what kind of outfitting you’re working on, different cutting and shaping tools come into play. A plain hacksaw blade with one end wrapped with tape is also a very versatile tool for working with minicell. If you every need to removed cemented minicell from a surface, the ability to slide a hack saw blade in between the foam and the surface area is great.
sing
Options
"1. What kind of glue do you use to glue the minicel layers together."
For foot bracing - none. For other applications; Contact cement or E6000.
“2. With the 15 degree angle on the surface, when paddling and bracing, do you still place just the ball of your feet on the minicel, or do you now place your entire foot, ball and heal, on the minicel. I think I read somewhere that you don’t really want to get your heal into the brace when rolling.”
Whatever - it’s all good - that’s the point of doing it for me. In use the 15 degrees seems pretty vertical in terms of being able to push straight into it. It just matches your slight knee bend and allows your ankle to maintain normal right angle instead of your foot being bent back.
“3. In case you care to comment on my tool selection. I’m just using the hand tools I have around the house. I have this tool that’s like a long narrow cheese grater with a handle, only for wood. It seems pretty good for shaving the mincel down. It does leave the minicel surface kind of shredded and rough. I figure I’ll finish with sand paper and a wood block.”
Again, whatever works. I mostly use hand saws (larger drywall type nice for cutting shapes out of 3") and shaping/sculpting finishing with a piece of “Dragon Skin”. For flat pieces of thinner stuff I’ll just use a knife. Utility knife works great on the mat squares.
composite- yes
roto- no.
the composite b/h are plenty strong and the foam in the roto boats is NOT even close. DO not use them for footrests.
steve
Kayakoutfitting.com
Here’s one lead. I haven’t done business with them. Their prices seem reasonable. No handling fees of inflated shipping fees.
http://kayakoutfitting.com/mainpage.php
Can anyone else comment?
Paul S.
The basic idea is to transfer energy
through your body to the footpegs to propel the boat.
Minicell defeats that purpose.