master tg or dagger approach 10.0

I’m a beginer looking for something < $800 I plan to paddle on lakes and slow rivers. I wanted a shorter boat. I’m 5’10" 190 pounds. I was thinking of getting a master tg or dagger approach 10.0 or something else? I’d ask at the local shop but I am criminally shy and hate talking to people. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

master tg
is a ww boat…it was designed to be safe and stable for beginner ww…you will find it VERY slow and pokey on flat water…

Would something like a blackwater 12 be better then?

What is your goal with the boat?

Give us some idea as to your priorities

assign a number 1-10 to these

easy to cartop?

able to take camping easily?


open water abilities (think a few hundred acres of lake, large inland lakes)


fast water?


Those will give most folks some idea as to what to suggest.

A blackwater 12 would be a good boat for general exercise, fishing, some light camping. Not the easiest to get on your car, might be a little pokey for larger bodies of water, but generally a respectable starter boat.

easy to cartop? 6

able to take camping easily? 5

speed? 7

open water abilities (think a few hundred acres of lake, large inland lakes) 7

portaging? 2

fast water? 6

fishing? 5

I was thinking of something like a Liquid Logic Stingray 12. I also wanted to paddle in small slower rivers.

Thanks for all input I’ve gotten.

suggest 12 foot minimum
If your looking at the stingrays, maybe the 14 would be a winner.

Really if speed and abilities on larger water are at all important, seriously look at a day touring boat.

Some examples are the Pisgah by Liquid Logic, the Cayuga 146 by Old Town, the Carolina by Perception, or a million other 14foot +/- boats with flotation front and rear.

If those are a too serious, the Acadia by Perception, Pungo or Pamlicos by Wilderness Systems, the Stingrays by Liquid Logics, and Blackwaters by Dagger are all winners.

If you go to your local paddling shops and ask around you may luck out and catch a demo day where you can try several boats at the same time and find something that fits you well.

Also remember if it feels tippy with 15 minutes in the boat, it probably wont after an hour, so dont be worried about a “tippy” boat.


– Last Updated: Jul-03-06 6:14 PM EST –

I went into the local shop to look at some boats and I'm starting to lean towards a Carolina 14.5, Easky 15, or Pisgah. There are so many kayaks in the 14' range, it's hard to choose.

Will I regret not getting a kayak with a skeg?

different schools of thought
There are two schools of thought on rudders and skegs.

  1. Those who feel they are a godsend and we all should have them, love them, and use them.

  2. Those who feel skegs and rudders create drag and are a crutch for those who would rather substitute skill with gear.

    Personally I see both sides. I could see a skeg or rudder useful during inclimate weather, and a crutch to use when you get tired. But if its clear sailing, I’d rather not use it as its not needed if you know your technique and it will create more drag.

    Heres my take, get it if you think the water your paddling will make good use of it, but dont use it until AFTER you fully understand how to work without it. I bet your likely to feel you need it less and less as time goes on and you know more.

    Or better yet, buy the boat without (if we are talking about a rudder), and if you find you still want it later, buy a rudder aftermarket.

Looks like you have some drive to explore the sport(as opposed Here’s a shopping hint-if it comes from the factory with to people that buy grocery store boats and perfectly happy floating around 100 ft away from a beach). My suggestion is go for something that has a good fitting cockpit(good thigh contact,not something big and sloppy) and isn’t a barge. a backband as opposed to a tall rigid seat back, it has a better chance of not being a pond cruiser.

I think the Pisgah sounds pretty cool except Liquid Logic uses pretty soft plastic ( i owned a Saluda) I think the Easky 15 would probably be decent, actually i bet it has the same cockpit as the Master TG-made by same company. Carolinas are known as a pretty recreational boat.

Rudder vs Skeg vs nothing. subject beat to death a zillion times. It’s a combination of boat and paddler. Some have the skill, some aren’t willing to learn. Also, some boats weathercock a lot more than others and contrary to popular belief,a straight tracking boat can still weathercock like a mofo. I belive the Rudder is superior to the skeg in every way except looks. The whole “rudders have more moving parts, theyre an add on gimmic and prone to breakdowns,real kayakers dont use rudders” is BS. Skegs seem to be much prone to having issues-usually with cables or jamming. and skeg boxes eat up space. Only 3 deficiencies of the rudder is Looks, Added windage, and the fact vast majority of rudder boats come from factory with the mushy sliding footpegs. I quickly replaced that with Seaward’s gas pedal system on my necky.

Check out the Manitou and Manitou 14
Great short touring boats that would do well in mellower rivers – I’d say the regualar Manitou (13’) is actually maneuverable enought for Class II/II+ – I may get one for that and short range touring, If you’re going to get something less maneuverable than that boat/ not boat where you’d need the meuverability, might as well go for a 16’ boat and speed.

I guess I’ll add seven feet
…to what I was originally looking for.

Thanks for the input. The more I’ve read the more I realize I’ll most likely be happier with a bigger boat… 16-17’ I’ve been hoping to find something used to keep it in my price range. I’m thinking either a tempest 170 or a prijon kodiak. I think I want to do a lot of fitness paddling and was considering a barracuda but I think the small cockpit combined with the steep learning curve on keeping it upright might be a little too much, although I do enjoy a challenge.

Just make sure
Just make sure you can still lift and manuever it easily. Getting too much boat is sometimes as bad as getting too little.

Make sure you can cartop it easily and you enjoy paddling it wherever your going to paddle the most.

Half the reason my little switfty gets used alot is because its so easy to get out where I actually get to paddle.