Mohawk Shaman / Probe ??????

Depends on who’s around

yeah well
Dagger called it fuchsia, but most flower growers seemed to disagree. We all called it “Pepto-Pink”.

Shaman…
I called Mohawk and talked to a guy there about the shaman vs. the probe.



What he told me about the Shaman was interesting and contradicts the online review perhaps. He seemed to have strong opinions.



He thought that it was not a good boat as a general river running / play boat. He pretty much felt it was designed for slalom and unless that is what you are going to do then it probalby is not a good boat for general use.



He thought it was a lousy surfer on anything but a glassy smooth wave and that the assymmetrical design was a detriminent unless you are doing “specialized” slalom strokes, etc.



He did say it was fast though.



He said that most people felt the same about the Shaman as he did which is why they dropped it.



So…



just one opinion but a strong one in favor of the probe over the shaman for general use.



he did make an interesting comment…said it depends whether you like to hit things in the river or avoid them…in a canoe I always do the latter. And said that if you like to use finesse on the river and avoid obstacles then the shaman may be better…??? I guess to me running WW is all about finesse and control so that one threw me just a little.



Matt

Take that with a grain of salt
As for Mohawk “dropping” the Shaman, there is another story that you have not been told.



I would like to know about those “specialized slalom strokes” that are not applicable to playboating or general river running. What are they, exactly?



It is true that the Shaman, having less volume in the bow, can get wet front surfing on a wave, especially if it is steep. Harold emphasizes leaning back when surfing in this boat.



There have been a whole lot of asymmetrical whitewater open boats including most of Kaz’s designs, the Dagger Prophet, the Mad River Howler, most of Esquif’s designs, and many others.

Don’t understand the distinction …
… between being a good slalom boat and a good river running boat. To me those concepts are not distinct; rather, they are identical. Slalom is formalized and technical testing of river running skills.



Now, perhaps the guy at Mohawk was trying to distinguish between slalom skills/technique vs. river NON-running skills/technique. What I mean by river NON-running is staying in one place and spending hours surfing a wave or playing in a hole. Those things do involve a distinct set of skills, and are all best done at high levels in a CLOSED boat.



I like to RUN the river as my primary occupation in a WW boat – eddying in and out; ferrying, forward and backward; intelligently using current differentials and eddy shadows; quickly accelerating to avoid river obstacles; quickly pivoting at high velocity – over a length of many, many miles. All these things are best done in a slalom hull.



Yes, I do like to surf and play in holes once in a while, but this is a very, very minor portion of the total river running experience. I would not enjoy a hull optimized for such static river NON-running.



So, it all boils down to different strokes for different strokes. Do you want to run 15 miles of the Dead-Hudson-Cheat River with precision, velocity, acceleration and elegance? Or, do you want maximum static play capability after sitting in line at the small handful of great play waves and holes?

only you will be able to answer this


… in time … How long and how many boats from now will it be before you’re sitting in big messy holes doing flat spins and big play moves?

Shaman Sold…
Okay well the used Shaman is now sold so only the used Probe remains.



However…a friend of mine told me that the Probe was a beginners boat and that I probably wouldn’t be happy with it in the long run. I certainly don’t want something that I will soon grow out of or be disappointed with.



Thoughts???

A real…
“canoe whore” would own both!

any design has good and bad aspects
Larry Wentzel and Mark Pavkovich are two very skilled open boaters in the mid-Atlantic area and both paddle Probes. Earlier this month I asked Mark if he had ever tried a Viper and suggested that he might appreciate its ability to carve more sharply. He said “I can put this boat anywhere I want and it does everything I want it to do. Why change?”.



Jim Michaud, former rodeo star and whitewater open boating legend from New England paddles an MRC Outrage. He says that people sometimes ask him “That’s a beginner’s boat, right?” He says he just smiles and says “Yes.”



I used to paddle with a guy from Tennessee who loved the Mohawk XL 13. Said it was the driest boat and best hole side-surfing machine he ever took down the Upper Gauley.

friend

– Last Updated: Jun-28-10 9:22 PM EST –

Your friend probably knows you and your WW paddling level better than folks who only know you from pnet. But FWIW, I don't really think of any WW boats as beginner boats. However there are certainly boats that are much more beginner friendly than others.

One of they guys Pete just mentioned who paddles a Probe, Mark P, ... well the Probe is not as fast as the Shaman, but Mark attains stuff (and makes it look easy) in his "slower" Probe than I can realistically ever hope to attain in my "faster" Shaman in my lifetime. Once again and always, it's the paddler and not the boat.

Thats why there are so many designs
If one hull was perfect for all paddlers on all rivers, there would only be one design. In my opinion, the Probe or a similar hull will suit you better, generally, on lower-volume, steeper creeks than a Shaman. Mostly just because it is shorter and not because of any relatively subtle aspect of the design. The Shaman is generally acknowledged to be faster than the shorter Probe models. You might note also that most (easy there, I said MOST) slalom courses are set up in class III-ish water and a boat that was designed with a strong emphasis on slalom racing is probably going to carry some ease of use and performance trade-offs when hole surfing or creeking. At the end of the day, how happy you are with a boat depends, like several others have posted already, on what your skill level currently is and what you want to do in the future.

if it’s boring

– Last Updated: Jun-28-10 5:36 PM EST –

find bigger water, or learn harder moves. If it's real boring, pole the thing. I find the Probe hull designs symetry aesthetically boring, but know a few who paddle it and love it, so that's what counts.
My kid was getting bored paddling his Encore on our 2-3 runs, so he started doing duffeks effectively, and is having fun again. Our Encores aren't the superior Fuschia color, but we make due. If I wasn't old and broken, I'd learn me that there duffek too.
I see a big distinction between a good slalom boat and a good big water boat. Got a Whitesell Pirana that's a pig, but is extremely dry, so in big water when others are swamped, the pig is dry and handles accordingly. Conversely, my Flashback allows me to attain surf waves I can't get to in any of my other boats besides the gyramax, but then cracks at my knees after I surf too long.;-) It also turns so fast I nearly dump eddying sometimes, blade pressure on a plant being enough to capsize this 27 pound filly.

I watched Harold surf a fairly irregular wave on the Lackawaxen several years back, in his Shaman. Boat surfed sweetly, must have been due to being composite as the Mohawk rep. informed ya' the Rx will only surf glassy smooth waves. For 3 years I would have told ya' green Encores don't surf, only the red and fuschia ones, then once I figured things out, I found green surfs and spins better than the other colors.
Every boat has strong points, and sometimes a "boring" design can be a good thing.Learning what these strong points are will allow you to utilize any boat advantageously. This is also why most of us have multiple boats. Met a guy a few weekends in a row, came up from NY to run my backyard. First weekend my local run was screaming, insano levels, I was out nearly every day for 2 weeks in my boring Encore. He had a sharp chined Esquif, looked too sharp for my reflexes. Couple remarks following my comment on how I love free boats led me to ask how his run went. "Couldn't do a thing, barely able to hang on" was the response. What I figured.
Following weekend I see him again, another river, too low for me, so I poled. He's in a forgiving design, whereas his edgy boat would have provided more fun and education, my opinion.

Great paddlers
I was with Clarion and Pete when we saw Mark and Larry paddle those Probe 12s. Wow! those guys go anywhere they want to go with such ease. I realize that is the great paddler and not all boat. But they both seemed very dry.

Appreciating you guys comments!
I’m also looking for a ww boat and considering the Probe and Shaman as well so I appreciate the comments you guys are making! I’d also would like some suggestions for a smaller person 5’4’’ 135#!



To see one of my video of Harold go to;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyoBkDPOqas



Manon


Take a look at Millbrook Boats
offerings. Light, strong. If you have no wish to do occasional repairs, check out the Esquif Spark, similar to the Millbrook Ignitor but shorter, and nice and light. At your weight you might really like it.

Cool video Manon


Thanks for posting that. Harold makes it look easy.

Hey I saw a hand switch at 0:49
What’s that all about :wink:

I saw that too

– Last Updated: Jul-07-10 5:30 PM EST –

There was one in one of the other vids as well.

I still need to replace habits with reflexes and skills. Switching hands isn't nearly so hard to learn.

I hadn’t noticed!
He does make it look so easy!!

and back again
I call that “get 'er dun” form,aka “whateverittakes.”. Glad to see someone with cred doing the same.