intuitive reasoning and rules
I understand your reasoning that the relative speed differences give you less ability to evade the faster boat if it’s on a collision course,therefore it is incumbent upon you to NOT require it to change course by holding yours. You need to communicate your intention to not commit suicide by changing your course or not obliging the larger/faster boat to change course. For it to change course for YOU affects many other boats down the line that you with your lowered elevation may not be aware of.
BECAUSE you are a sitting duck doesn’t mean you are obliged to be a suicidal duck.
Pamlico_140, get some sunglasses.
Maybe those funky Oakley knock offs, no need to bust the budget, just crack the old piggy and pick up a cool pair at Dollar General. Match the color of your Pamlico, if you can. And then paddle the Pamlico, and like a poster above mentions, look for the powerboats with the young ladies on them. They’ll be parked, rubbing all those exotic oils and salves on their teenage skin, and you can paddle on up to them and say, “G’day ladies. Do you have the name of a good eye doctor? I think I’m seeing Jessica Alba and Lindsey Lohan when I look at you two.” (bada bump – make that drum sound with your mouth-- you can get away with all this chatter because you’re a teen. Most of the rest of us would look like flaming idiots if we did this… anyhow, continue). "Hey, ladies, anyone want to get into my Pamlico with me so I can show you the forward stroke? " (bada bump) If they give you a blank stare, which is not only a possibility but actually very likely as your charm will have caught them off guard – I mean, who woulda thunk an Oakley wearing paddler would be so suave on the inland flatwater at noon on a Sunday. Anyhow, then say, “And without further adieu, I want you to meet Mr. Seat Cushion. Hi, Mr. Seat Cushion!” Act truly excited and pull your cushion out from under your sweaty butt and throw it into their boat. It’s like the old door-to-door vacuum cleaner saleman throwing dirt inside your front door – a guaranteed entrance. Then, say, “Ladies, I am sorry for Mr. Seat Cushion’s behavior. Bad Cush!” Then start to get out of your kayak and get onto their boat. If you’re not downing the suds while they rub coconut oil on your shoulders within 15 minutes, I would be really shocked.
So, to answer your original thread, if you can’t beat the power boaters, why not join them.
I do alter course
– Last Updated: May-02-06 11:09 PM EST –
I alter course quite obviously to one side (as required) or the other and hope they notice and go the other way. I didn't imply otherwise. I think I even implied our obligation to be "courteous". I know the f'ing rules.
WTF did you think this meant:
"""That is of course where we should be courteous and not make a nuisance of ourselves. And as always, the law of tonnage trumps all."""
From the rules I'm the stand-on vessel in that situation because the lake is wide open and the powerboat is in no way hindered from altering course. Really, they have no business running that close to me on a marked course anyway.
However....
Rules also state that I must make a reasonable effort to avoid collision. In matters of marine right of way both the give-way and stand-on can be cited in an incident for failure to avoid collision, maintain adequate watch, careless operation, etc......Besides, I don't fancy getting crushed and try to be friendly.
Another however, if I'm between bouys on a marked course doing a workout and some ass runs down the course and I have to interupt my workout to avoid him, I let them know my displeasure.
rules eh?
– Last Updated: May-02-06 11:05 PM EST –
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
From the rules FAQ:
""One could infer that a "vessel under oars" (applies to canoes and kayaks since these are specifically meantioned) should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).:""
Rule 2: (b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
I looked at Rule 8 as well on "action to avoid a collision" and fail to see where I've gone wrong. Where reasonable and prudent we get out of the way . But it is also on powerboats to avoid us. Ulimately, we fall somewhere between powerboats and sailing vessels, which is what I have been taught and have been practicing, aside from the all important "tonnage law".
Further from the rules:
"""""Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
1. a vessel not under command;
2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
3. a vessel engaged in fishing;
4. a sailing vessel.
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
1. a vessel not under command;
2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
3. a vessel engaged in fishing.""""""
You are making my point for me
you don’t know what you are talking about, and you are making incorrect assumptions. No offense, but you are typical of many kayakers. Why am I wasting my time with this? Trying to educate kayakers…makes me look retarded.
You don’t know the rules
You think you do, that is what irritates mariners. You are simply another vessel, and you need to comply accordingly. You are reguired to yield to a stand on vessel just as a power boat would. Are you a licensed Captain? A sailboat under sail is restricted to some extent, and thus the distinction between sail and power.
point out to me
Point out to me what is incorrect? Most of that post is copied from the USCG site? I really need to know because our law enforcement on inland waters is screwing the pooch if I’m wrong too.
simply another vessel
– Last Updated: May-03-06 9:56 AM EST –
Maybe I need to be more particular in my writing. I thought I was being sufficiently clear with regard to my impression of our responsibilities. Apparently you've assumed that I think that we should be able to sit in the middle of a marked channel somewhere and scream foul when a ship blows its horn and throws a wake on us. Sorry I gave you that impression. I still think that outside marked navigational lanes we have slightly more rights than powerboats based on our limited ability to get out of the way. Funny thing is, I usually end up being the default stand-on in crossing situations (even when sprinting at 9-10mph) regardless of whether approaching port or starboard because most powerboats go out of their way to go in front of me so I usually automatically alter to stern, even on the lake in a sprint boat where I then have to go to shore to dump out the wash.
Like I said:
"""""Rules also state that I must make a reasonable effort to avoid collision. In matters of marine right of way both the give-way and stand-on can be cited in an incident for failure to avoid collision, maintain adequate watch, careless operation, etc......""""""
Is that incorrect?
I also state somewhere that we fall somewhere between powerboats and sail boats in the grand scheme of right of way. That is correct, yes? It is what law enforcement has told me. As we are in the ether in the regs, and based on the FAQ on the USCG site (says we are "vessels under oars", I'd say that is a fair assessment.
I think I also stated somewhere that we have no rights in a marked channel or sea lane. Is that incorrect? I generally think that light craft have no business in such areas and I think that we are legally obligated to avoid them. Have I gone wrong here too? Did you simply miss that statement?
My example was a small lake that I paddle everyday and was something that I have experienced numerous times. No marked channel. Me paddling a bouyed 2000m course (with a tonne of room on either side) and some putz forces me to take evasive action though my heading is already quite clear (you know, a straight line from the 0m to the 250m to the 500m to the 750m) etc........ I think it really is on the powerboat to avoid me when my heading is clear and I'm running a course. I avoid out of self preservation but I shouldn't have to. In crossing situations I almost always go to stearn since I'm slow (and 99% of the powerboats around here don't know the rules for crossing anyway, red/green what?).
As for being a "kayaker" pretending to know the rules, I grew up on the water and have operated powerboats for far longer than I have kayaked. No I'm not a liscensed captain but I have assimilated most basic coastal rules regarding overtaking, crossing, and general navigation and know from experience that the vast majority of powerboater don't know any of the rules. Judging by the number of times I seen people slam hard aground right next to a channel marker, most don't even know how to follow a channel. As such, I'm pretty defensive on the water.
I also have regular contact with law enforcement as part of my work and have discussed these issues with them because they are alway bitching tourist in rented S.O.T.s on the beachside. They regard canoes and kayaks in inland waters as somewhere between sailboats and powerboats in rules of "right-of-way". They also say that kayaks must not obstruct marked lanes when prudent to avoid such areas and express their frustration at me regarding kayaks paddling down the middle of the intercoastal as if we are all some big club and I can correct the behavior myself.
I think you are the one making assumptions about my knowledge-base and behavior in all situations based on my one example on a lake. My behavior in Ponce Inlet, the Chesapeake Bay, and my home training lake are all quite different based on the laws in the area and the nature of the waterbody.
I’m reading conflicted statements
you acknowledge changing course and gross tonnage conflicts but imply ownership of a stretch of water between buoys.
“because of the average pleasure boat’s speed they have to avoid us”
"Really, they have no business running that close to me on a marked course anyway. "
Is this “marked course” recognized as a paddlers restricted access area, a 6mph restricted zone or just a couple navigation markers?
L
That’s funny, you all assume the problems with power boaters will be on the water. Most of the time it’s on the RAMP!!!
"a buoyed course"
how is that relevant?
Of course yer rite…I saw a fist fight
on the ramp 2 years ago between 2 impatient pwr boaters…
The real relevant rules
From the USCG FAQ:
Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address “kayaks” or “canoes” per se, except in regards to “vessels under oars” in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a “vessel under oars” should be treated as a “sailing vessel” since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom “gives way” would fall to what would be “required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case” (Rule 2).
Rule 2
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
territory
my impression is that you have a conflict of territory on the water. You have a specific purpose for an open stretch of water that is unknown to other boaters and irrelevant to the rules of the road. While you are going balls to the wall between markers you still have to change course and it’s irritating.
My last comments
Scombird,
I appreciate that you have thought a lot about this and do not dimminish your sea time. As a licensed Master I am bound to take the Rules very literally. I believe we disagree on one issue, and it ultimately may be a hair splitter, albeit an important one.
I think you are applying local state lake water rules to the Colregs, and are using the CG statement about inferring kayaks and canoes similar to sailing vessels, as they “can” dislpay similar lights to support your notion that you do in fact have some priority over power vessels on open water.
I read that differently. I see that the CG aknowledges kayaks and actually aknowledges your inferrence, BUT, goes on to say that no special allowances for such craft exist in the International, or Inland Rules. They then default to the rule of good seamanship which speaks to avoid a collision at all costs, regardless of the rules. Clearly a power vessel that collides with you without taking every precaution to avoid you…even though you are in the wrong…is at fault. But this does not mean that we have the right to force other vessels to avoid us, even in open water.
In practice where we differ may be that when I am in my kayak, I behave exactly as if I were operating a power vessel. My sensitivity here is that I see kayakers acting in ways on the water with the assumption that everyone has to get out of their way. That is, as the Rules are written today, WRONG.
Law enforcement…I’d rely on them only to be knowledgeable on their waters of jurisdiction. I would not rely on them to necessarily understand the Colregs.
marked
– Last Updated: May-03-06 12:11 PM EST –
Marked 2000m regatta course. No speed zone assigned and I don't own the water but my heading should be quite clear and the course only takes up about 1/4 of the surface of the lake (which opens up to about 200mile of St. Johns River) so avoiding boats on the course isn't placing any unreasonable burden on the bass boats and runabouts that rule the roost around here. As such the powerboats really shouldn't put themselves on a collision heading in the first place. It's not like I'm randomly zig-zagging all over the lake.
Legally, if a high speed powerboat strikes me anywhere on the lake or river I'm not likely to get charged with any wrong doing under local interpretation of the regs as the law around here has it on them to not run over the speed bumps. Reasonable and prudent action is on me to not put myself in that situation. I think you guys are approaching this with totally different conditions in mind (like channels coming in and out of inlets and busy harbors).
I said earlier:
""""because of the average pleasure boat's speed they have to avoid us"""
Yeah, that statement is stupid. Especially as a stand alone. It should have been better qualified.
And I’ll mention it again
I posted this earlier but doubt anyone saw it. Here in Minnesota the boating guide is quite clear and states:
“Non-Motorized Craft (sailboats, canoes, etc.) have right-of-way over motorized craft in all situations except when the non-motorized craft is overtaking or passing.”
Your state/country may differ, but that seems pretty obvious who “legally” has the right-of-way. That doesn’t mean you should always challenge a barge to a right-of-way battle.
hair splitting and perspectives
– Last Updated: May-03-06 12:05 PM EST –
"" As a licensed Master I am bound to take the Rules very literally. ""
I think we have simply come at this from different perspectives and I have misrepresented my own stance and practice hence our apparent disagreement. My statement "they should avoid us" gave the impression that I think we should be special in some way.
"""I read that differently. ... They then default to the rule of good seamanship which speaks to avoid a collision at all costs""""
I acknowledged the rule of good seamanship. In areas where you likely operate, good seamanship on the part of kayaks probably would mean not clogging channels, crossing in from of large vessels, etc.....
On my lake and river it is out the window with powerboats just running every which way. I just stay out of the way as much as possible and without established lanes, etc... the fast boats are under a greater legal burden to avoid me even in light of my burden to take necessary action to avoid collision. In a "free for all" type area like a lake, being visible and vigilant is about as far as you can get with good seamanship in a kayak.
""" But this does not mean that we have the right to force other vessels to avoid us, even in open water."""
That really isn't the impression that I meant to give.
"""In practice where we differ may be that when I am in my kayak, I behave exactly as if I were operating a power vessel. """
I doubt we differ much in practice. I run the shoal water through inlets. I keep to the side in the river (except where alligators and debris forces other behavior). I paddle across channels at right angles. However, in places like my lake I don't run down the shoreline, it is too shallow and there is ample room for vessels to avoid me. My "forcing" them to avoid me is not placing any unreasonable burned on them.
It really is nice
– Last Updated: May-03-06 11:36 AM EST –
to see fellow paddlers take such an interest in navigation and the rules of the road. I'm feeling kinda proud. *Sigh* :)
should be clear but clearly isn’t
– Last Updated: May-03-06 12:01 PM EST –
There are big orange bouys every 500m and lanes. There are also tons of crew teams on the lake in January and March. It should be obvious what's going on. More than likely though the powerboats have no clue what I'm doing, even the old guys that fish for speckled perch every morning for three months and see me out there everyday going up and down and up and down. (those old guys own the lake anyway, they put out 50poles, set the autopilot on the trolling motor, and don't look up again until they hit something).
I'm seem to have given the impression that I'd go to the river and its marked and maintained channel, decide to cross, see a big yacht coming, and go anyway expecting him to stop or alter course to avoid. That isn't what I intended to communicate. We obviously do not have the right to put ourselves in collision situations. I don't see many other kayaks around here so I don't know what you encounter. I'm guessing that down there in tourist land you get a lot of really slow, inept kayaks, that just blunder in and out of channels, through busy areas etc.....I really regret if I came off as advocating a position that such behavior is acceptable or even legal.