That’s the beauty of a sculling roll.
You can actually do it from deeper water and work your way up. Or, you can use it to recover/finish a blown roll.
Thanks I enjoyed that
I have worked on rolls under several instructors, and each does have a different approach. This article reminds me about the number of sweep rolls I was able to do, and how I did it.
Lou
All good
Yes, different methods for different folks. Sometimes paddlers approach the roll as a single skill and they attempt it before they have some of the components down. This makes for a fragile and anxiety ridden and frustrating process of getting and losing it.
The folks who enjoy an ease are those who allow themselves to learn the foundation aspects of rolling and then have a person help them put it together in a style that suits their body, build, boat, paddle, flexibility, rear deck height, etc.
Hence some folks who found sculling first helped, bracing first helped, understanding boat rotation and edging helped, etc.
I know it sounds corny but each of us has a Supremely Wise Creative place in us that is coordinated and can learn things in big integrated chunks if we help people to relax, have no pressure, be humorous, and be successful with each step.
Sometimes when I suceed in this, a person who is CONVINCED they are stupid, a bad athlete, etc. actually progresses faster than the whole rest of the class, including the super jocks.
I think incompetent student
I’ve worked with some pretty experienced people who have taught lots of people to roll.
I’ve never been very good at sports, but I do enjoy some sports, and I’m willing to work longer to accomplish things that others can do more quickly. It is what it is and I accept it and even enjoy the challenge.
Lou
I’ll Have To Check This One Out
Sounds LIke You’re Making Progress
– Last Updated: Apr-25-06 4:56 PM EST –
My buddy was having a very difficult time rolling. I loaned him my Eric Jackson DVD and helped him in the pool and he's bracing and rolling very well now.
I'm a believer in the first-brace-then-roll approach to learning. My buddy had to put the paddle float on the paddle a few times just to get the rolling motions right.
When you high brace, plop on into the water. Head and shoulders IN the water, then come up. Your hip snap will develop more the longer you wait in the water before you come up.
Eric Jackson is THE MAN.
Your problem is clear to me
"I’ve never been any good at sports" You say things like this to yourself and program your sub-conscious accordingly. You get in life what you think about the most! Stop thinking that way and start visualizing yourself firing off rolls one after another. Tell yourself it’s easy, and you’re getting it!! Report back with success…thanks.
Apples to Apples?
To be clear, I’m talking about bracing up from a total flop over, not some half hearted half-way over - head dink - slap at the water thing.
I contend that someone who has a solid (wet body)high brace can roll. If they can’t roll, how can they really have a solid high brace? They are the same thing. Setup and such are not where the righting action is.
Lou - sculling is much easier if you leave your body in the water! Very minimal sculling action is then required to get your face to the surface for air. Trying to lift or keep your body out is counterproductive (and about as real world useless as as dry body high brace). Use knee drive to right boat for getting back upright from the side sculling position.
Sculling can be done all out to the side with a small arc, or slower and longer like going from setup to sweep and back - as many times as you like. Pausing and rewinding that part of the roll. When trying a roll, if your sweep’s not right - tuck back and go again. Sweep from torso, not arms. Paddle doesn’t need to move much relative to your body.
You’re not weird
Weird people can teach themselves pretty quickly - with no instruction - and then show others in a session or so. I ought to know! L
Maybe the whole “instructor” thing has you hung up - makes it all more serious and official or something? It seems you make too much of a distinction between what goes on in a “lesson” and in your own practice".
Normally I wouldn’t discourage lessons - but you’ve already done that. You need to play. Can you find some “just paddlers” who roll and work on stuff together? Maybe some Greenland types?
Keep up with your persistance
and you will be rolling. Everyone learns differently and by staying persistant you will get it. I have found that it is a complex assembly of skills that need to be developed and by using whatever you can to make each step work will get you on your way. An extended paddle can give you some good leverage for developing a hip snap and recovery skills. As your skills improve you can lessen the extension.
Reaching up with the paddle so that it clears the bottom of the hull is an awkward skill when first done but it does get easier with time. I started wotking on stretching exercises when I wanted to learn to roll and it has made a difference in my rolling and everyday life. Keep at it. Before you know it you’ll be rolling.
Practice reaching up…
… by reaching down! When sitting upright, tuck into setup (don’t capsize) with paddle alongside - and stick it under water a little. Air water interface is at same point on your wrists.
I rarely pay attention to any of that while rolling though…
Just noticed your profile
– Last Updated: Apr-25-06 9:23 PM EST –
and that you have actually included your "ongoing saga" of not-rolling in it.
It seems to me that you may actually enjoy all the attention you're getting from your "inability" to roll (poor you!) This has been going on for years? I remember all the lengthy posts from last year and it seems to me you've made no progress at all mentally, which is where your problem is. If you can't scull under water and get your paddle to the surface, it's because you are not relaxed enough to pay attention to your blade angle and what you are doing. It seems to me that all your attention to the details is an attempt to avoid your real problem (fear in the water/lack of self confidence.)
You should stop all this "attention getting talk" about rolling, go to the pool and stay there until you learn.
Maybe you can hook up with Salty (100% teaching success) and lock yourselves in a pool club 'til you get it.
Agree
Lou, you have psyched yourself out. You psyched yourself out last year, and now you are trying to force yourself to buck up at the end of a long winter, when you aren’t in paddling shape.
Do yourself a favor, and work on the other skills; also just paddle for fun. Maybe enjoying the sport will help erase negative high-school memories. I hated gym class and the whole “bigger and stronger is better” attitude that went with all those stick-and-ball team sports. Trust me, that attitude is probably working against you right now. Rolling isn’t about strength, it’s about timing and technique–neither of which the gorillas claim exclusive rights to.
I hope you don’t mind my asking, but do you know how to swim? If you don’t, learning to do so will probably help you relax and have more confidence, not just ON the water, but IN it.
bracing takes too much energy
and i’m too lazy, i just fall over and start sculling, sculling to the rear and then up
Fine, but no pool
Nature has provided us with the pool, and it’s the pool we paddle in and need to learn in. The only reason I can see to mess with a pool is if all the natural water is frozen. I get amused by people where I live waiting to get into a frikin pool so they can learn rescue and rolling skills!!! How lame is that, and isn’t THAT part of the problem. How did the Greenlanders, Inuits etc. manage without heated chlorinated pools? I’ll get this guy rolling, but he has to get past the bullshit self talk, or I’m bored and gone.
Amen! n/m
.
rwven makes a good suggestion,
i say good not for this chap in question but for others reading this thread wondering if they can learn to roll.
We also got Derek’s book and yes it was January with temps in the 10s…we drove 70 miles down the interstate to a hotel near Pigeon Forge that had an indoor pool.
We waited until all were asleep then we brought the kayaks inside and went through Hutchinson’s instructions step by step on the Pawlatta. We found success the first night with the Pawlatta. On a second visit to this same motel we moved back in time so-to-speak by bringing the paddle toward the bow and then swept the paddle until it was in the same position that we began the Pawlatta in…this is of course the same position you are in when you come up on the other side from your set up postion.
The next step, again working backwards was setting up and turning over and sweeping into Pawlatta…by this time it had become a c-c roll and after about 20 repetitions our speed increased and it was more of a screw roll.
My roll was self drilled into my head now as a screw roll and it wasnt until my first Greenland class with Stamer et.al. that I began to slow the process down and enjoy the GP…
I do think 3 big problems could be addressed:
- get people over the fear of turning over with several wet exits, letting them know you will com e out.
- get people believing that they can hold there breath a lot longer than they think possible, I do this with the kids by getting them upside down and just sitting there for at first 4 then 5 then 7 then 10 seconds…then they can wet exit or reach up and begin to sweep.
- I dont think instructors do a good enough job of explaining that the sweeping paddle angle upward can be pulled against, can be pull down on, that the moving/sweeping paddle blade is the equivalent of a dock or solid object you can hold onto.
- a lot of the roll is hard to picture 3d mentally so i think it is good to get a video of EJ or Malingiac (sp?) showing the process, especially from the point of view behind but in line with the kayak.
My 0.02
tis a gift to be simple
You’ve gotten a lot of advice, much of it contradictory or at least difficult to integrate. It might help to make things simpler by subtracting information with the aim of identifying and chosing the easiest possible roll to learn.
step 1: pick the standard greenland layback roll as the roll to learn
step 2: choose gp or extended euro paddle
step 3: watch jab babina’s rolling video–absolutely the simplest easiest step by step approach to the layback roll mostly illustrated with an extended euro paddle
step 3: make sure your kayak is outfitted properly–many rolls fail on this step (jay shows how)
step 5: practice the rolling sequence jay outlines
step 6: roll up and celebrate
If you’re having trouble, it makes sense to pick the simplest and easiest roll sequence there is. This roll takes no arm and little or no core strength–it is all about finese and works better done slow and easy.
Hint not in video: An avataq (rolling bladder)available from brooks (google) is a nice tool for learning how to slide up on the back deck
If you can take a class with cheri perry, turner wilson, mark or becky molina or any of the greenland rollers (they’ll let you use your euro paddle extended), it is the sequence they teach, but in a low volume rolling boat that makes the roll super easy. If you can,take a class since it is really nice for feel and confidence, and then you can move the roll to your own boat.
Hey Laleluia
– Last Updated: Apr-26-06 9:07 AM EST –
Here we go again? Is this healthy?
I agree wholeheartedly that you need to stop, learn one roll and keep doing it until it is painless and thoughtless.
I am going to suggest something here that worked very well for me and that is in my opinion fundamental to rolling.
Hang upside down in your kayak and twist your body to the left side into a set up position then lower yourself back down and twist up to the set up position on the other side. You should be able tyo do this a couple of times before you need air.
This will increase tremendously your awareness of where you are in the water in relation to the kayak and will "train" your body into getting into a set up position without even thinking about it.
Initially it was a bit disconcerting as I tried to figure out where I was but after a bit it was pretty easy...just remember that if you tuck forward you are pointing to the front deck...from there you can go to either side. It also helps you understand what your paddle is doing under the water and how you can use it to help you twist.
Anyway it works for me and was the basis for learning other rolls easily because as long as you really know where you are under the water, you can pretty much set the paddle or yourself where you want.
I can fall over from any angle and get up again on either side with my paddle, and without it on my on side..and I can get to my on side without worrying because of what I just mentioned if I don't have my paddle anymore.
Paul
personally, I think you should try a version of the butterfly roll first. It is easy to just lean way back and hold the paddle in the middle and slide/fall over on one side and then bring yourself back up by initiating a bit of a hip snap and using the two blades on the paddle on top of the water as you would a pool wall. (no sweep but just the resistandce of two flat blades on the water) after a bit you can simply stick the paddle up on top of the water and do the same thing when rolling.
Becky Molina uses the butterfly roll as her bombproof roll as it only requires one hand and is pretty easy to execute from either side.
Blame the victim less than useful
It can look to others as if you are “seeking attention”, by having this problem, but in my years of working with folks, this is not the root of it and only serves to make a person feel badly in addition to being inacurate.
IMO, once we get the idea in our heads we are less than capable then we get the idea that all the solution exist externally to us.
The real trick is to find instruction that helps you reclaim you own inner strengths and expand on them. No technique will work for you, no matter how clever, and their are, imo, some wonderful suggestions in these post, really top notch actually.
For, help yourself by reclaiming your own internal wisdom and capacity for learning, then move forward. You can do it!