Rolling Shugyo…
A bow to your determined efforts. You only lose when you stop trying.
sing
Yep, and
though I see a bit of self-defeatism in his writing, I’ll admit to that in my own life. Perhaps that’s why it’s so visible. We all battle that. For me it’s not in athletics so much as in other areas. Olympic athletes get a lot of psychological training, and do a lot of visualization. The key I think is to know when your feeding yourself limiting thoughts and move beyond.
Maybe Because He Helped Me
but Greyak is right, in my opinion.
I use the sweep roll and mechanics are most of the roll. In the sweep roll you are using the boat to bring you up as apposed to using the paddle sweep to bring you up. The sweep of the paddle just adds a bit of stability. Your hip flick is going to rotate the boat and you will come up with the boat.
One of the major issues I had was expecting the sweep to help in a major way. I kept pulling the paddle down attempting to use it for leverage. I started comming right up once I learned to use a very relaxed grip on the paddle.
Good Luck,
Mark
verily so!
I will remember that today heading out on the sub 40 waters!
Evan
heheh
better you than me evans…
Paul
bumper sticker
don’t believe everything you think
blade angle…
Medicineman, you wrote “I dont think instructors do a good enough job of explaining that the sweeping paddle angle upward can be pulled against, can be pull down on, that the moving/sweeping paddle blade is the equivalent of a dock or solid object you can hold onto.”
I never teach a climbing angle blade for a roll since it places too much emphasis on arms and it tends to lead to a diving paddle. I always teach a neutral (sweep/screw roll) or diving angle (slash roll) for rolling. My belief is that if you are feeling any pressure on the paddle when rolling (for standard sweep/screw rolls), you’re not rolling properly.
"the solution exist externally to us"
Somehow, I never got into that mindset while learning rolling. Always knew it would require internal resources and being open to something somewhat alien to all prior experience. This I think let me self teach effectively (enough anyway). External resources proved helpful, but only because I looked at so many sources (videos and online comments) that I began to see through it all to the core.
A big part of the problem here is Lou thinks he knows what to do, and knowledge won’t roll the kayak. His first session this year sounded promising as he was noticing things more directly - but then slipped back into the mindset that keeps him down.
The day it clicked for me was the same day I stopped thinking about all the things I thought were supposed to be happening - stopped the chatter - and simply felt what was actually going on. Boat - body - blade. Nothing else (and in that order of importance)
Hey Lou…
don’t post anymore about your rolling. Just go practice it alone and/or with your instructor.
Seriously, as I read through list, I freakin’ get confused. I think all these posts can become the “chatter” that will confuse you while you’re trying to roll.
Pick your method and your tool and stick with it.
sing
Yep again
With folks in Lou’s stage sometimes the hardest part about teaching is erasing all the bits and pieces and starting from scratch. I believe he doesn’t need a lot of well-meaning, but innexperienced coaches throwing solutions at him. He needs an experienced rolling coach (one only) who will not try to make him perform roll A or B, but who will observe him, his movements, flexibility, etc., and find a methodology that speaks to him. I’m not talking text book here. One on one only–no group. And once he has a safe roll he needs to do 1000 in one month, and the rolling drama will be over. I wish him well. These are my opinions and represent what has never failed me…may some day.
Can we take up a collection
to send him to Eric Jackson and 15 minute roll school ?
I’ll Say It Again
Eric Jackson is THE MAN. That and two pieces of advice I got from PNet:
- Keep a loose grip on the paddle.
- Get that knee involved in the hip snap.
(The loose grip seems to allow the blade to find a climbing angle all by itself).
I think so too.
And since the hip snap is energized by moving your body down and back it does help to have a somewhat climbing angle since the paddle does move backwards for most people.
staying persistant you will get it
It took me forever to roll. Do not give up. Know that at some point you will roll successfully and reliably.
For me it took intersecting with the right instructor (Evan). For others it is something else that finally clicks.
Just know that at some point you will have a roll.
wow surprising…
Dr. Disco, a fellow slash roll advocate, I’m surprised that you’re ok with the climbing angle. I find that people who roll with climbing angles tend to muscle up the roll and that leads to bad rolling habits. I’m sure there’s nothing really that bad about a climbing angle (heck a sculling roll is all climbing angle) but I just have an aversion to rolling being anything but effortless.
Actually
what I do is turn the paddle at the last second as a part of the down and back motion. For the sweep itself I use a neutral paddle angle. So I am still in the fold. 
Maybe
– Last Updated: Apr-26-06 8:55 PM EST –
However, doing the same thing over and over and and expecting different results is one form of insanity.
Stick to one plan, keep at it, but adapt and adjust along the way when what you're doing isn't working. Same thing a good instructor should be getting you to do while working with you.
You've already received every conceivable recommendation and bit of advice imaginable - and it doesn't seem to make any difference. Up to you now.
Report back when you are rolling (sometime THIS season, PLEASE!!! "Forever" is NOT an option).
try a GP
Try it with a Greenland paddle, using the extended sweep. Actually, learn to side skull with it first, then you can just sit up, if you have a good lay-back boat. It’s soooo much easier with this paddle. As they say, with a GP, rolling is Tai Chi, not Karate.
Cheers, Alan
Agree about Jay’s video
Jay’s video called “The First Roll” is excellent and shows you how to learn it using “baby steps” from a flat sandy shore to two feet of water to four feet, etc etc etc. Also helps as it takes you through high bracing as was mentioned before this. I will be heading out to one of the local lakes to practice this as well if I can’t find a paddling partner to practice with.
I am also sick of pools and won’t use them unless the water temp is below 45.
Scott
Agree about Jay’s video
IMHO, ‘First Roll’ is the best video for sea kayakers wishing to roll.
Though nothing beats the right coach and tools.