more
does that mean it requires the paddlers to be more in tune with each other to take advantage of that maneuverability?
I was around the CLC Sport Tandem when it first hit the water and found it to be surprisingly maneuverable but felt that that made a rudder just as useful to free up the blades for forward power and bracing as it was a bit on the tippy side for a double.
NDK Triton
– Last Updated: Jan-09-08 3:03 PM EST –
Not a requirement but it certainly helps if the paddlers are working together. In the Triton, you are sitting closer together than in most tandems (they designed it to keep the weight out of the ends), so synchronized paddling is recommended.
The Triton's secondary stability is as solid as the Explorer, so edging is no problem, even for novice paddlers. Although much narrower than most tandems, the kayak is surprisingly stable. Once you start working together with the edging, the kayak really comes into its own and becomes much more maneuverable. No rudder required.
Otterslide gives a terrific review of the Triton on the following post: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=565024
I was with Otterslide (Karl)
in the triton on one of those 35knot Colubmia River surfing days. What a HOOT! Karl being the much stronger paddler was in the stern. When we raced down the face of 5-6 ft wind waves, we would bury the bow up to my chest! I had to hold my paddle over my head while Karl leaned almost out of the kayak with all his weight on a huge stern rudder laughing the whole time.
Triton
Sounds like a blast, Roller! I would love to paddle there sometime.
Nice try, Rick
– Last Updated: Jan-13-08 5:40 PM EST –
You and I have been in enough club meetings in the past for you to know that's not the way I operate.
Moreover, the companies I've worked for actually CARED about quality and they even IMPROVED their processes and products in response to Q/A feedback. It generally wasn't necessary to discuss problems more than once before action was taken. In contrast:
- How many years has Nigel been using the same crappy methods and materials?
- How many hundreds of defective boats has NDK produced?
- You know as well as I do that some dealers have found defect rates of 50% in shipments from NDK. How can anyone defend that???
The fact that NDK is still in business is nothing short of miraculous and it's entirely due to the strength of the designs. The way they conduct business is simply stupid and irresponsible, no matter how you look at it. It's also completely unnecessary, as it's easily fixable. Can you think of a single GOOD reason why Nigel would choose not to make simple quality improvements?
Personal? No. As for the two Nigels…
I’ve never met Nigel Dennis and I suspect that based on what others have said, I’d probably like the guy. However, that wouldn’t stop me from telling him what I think of the miserable quality of his products.
I’ve paddled with Nigel Foster a few times and spent some time with him off the water. Aside from being a very friendly and funny guy, he’s a savvy businessman. He cares about the reputation of his products and chooses good manufacturers to build them.
I owned a Nigel Foster Silhouette that was built in Holland by Watermark. It weighed ~55 pounds, which is not unreasonable for an 18’ boat that’s laid up by hand. It was beautifully made, using all cloth construction and had one of the nicest hand layups I’ve seen. That boat took a pounding, including one mishap that likely would have broken the nose off an NDK boat. It was a high quality product. Could it have been better? Sure, it could have been lighter, but it was build before vacuum bagging and resin infusion became common in the kayak industry. My girlfriend has a Rumour from the same factory and it’s another example of a well-made boat.
I have no idea what “6 ton” boats you’re talking about. The boats built in Florida that I’ve seen and the ones build by Walden were nothing like what you describe.
Do you actually think for a minute…
…that Chis Duff’s boats are indicative of the run-of-the-mill NDK production boats?
I have no doubt that he chose the boats because he like the way they paddled and you can be sure that his boats were custom built to his specs.
No need, read the post above
What would you call a businessman that produces product riddled with defect, knows about it and does nothing to correct the problems?
What would you call someone who designs great boats, but builds them so poorly that they develop a reputation for terrible quality?
What would call someone who allows poor quality to drive him to bankruptcy (remember a few years back), yet still doesn’t fix the problems?
What would you call someone who could be making a lot of money if he only improved the quality of his products, but can’t be bothered to do so?
I could go on, the point is pretty clear. Under the circumstances, I think “piss poor businessman” is being generous.
Yeah a bit
tippy for a tandem that is. An asset in a single (if you like them playful) but in a tandem every twitch induced by one paddler has to be interpreted and reacted to by the other. When the paddlers are in sync. & moving at a good clip the Sport Tandem feels good though. My son-in-law and I are considering building one for some adventure racing.
no kidding?
– Last Updated: Jan-15-08 7:13 PM EST –
in reference to 2 of your latest statements -
1. "You and I have been in enough club meetings in the past for you to know that's not the way I operate."
i have been in the same room and have had some of these same arguments with you on this and on other topics. and actually, it IS the way you operate. you may not understand, realize or acknowledge this but nevertheless sometimes when people STOP discussing a point with you it isn't because your argument is irrefutable or the logic unassailable; it's because we're done talking with you and want to let it go. we disagree and accept it.
generally, you have well thought out and reasoned points and while we disagree on some things, you make a fine foil to challenge points of view. reasonable people will disagree. but sometimes you can and do go over the top with how you deliver your message...and then sometimes you say something like...
2. "You know as well as I do that some dealers have found defect rates of 50% in shipments from NDK. How can anyone defend that???"
where are you getting this data? i've helped unload that container for a few years now and i don't see defects anywhere near where you're talking...(although the only thing you might see at that point are gross defects like decks bashed in, wrong color, things like that...you won't know anything really til they're outta the bubble wrap and water tested) and for that matter, i haven't seen you unloading those containers so am curious to know how you can make that statement. in any event, don't list me as espousing that figure...i think you made it up.
the only reason i responded is because your attributing a completely bogus # as a "fact" i've accepted and have no interest in renewing the string but i have to ask, why are you re-hashing this again? do you think there is anyone on the internet ANYWHERE that has questions regarding your opinion on the topic? i think we all get it. you think the manufacture of the boats suck.
Rick, read the drysuit gasket thread
Case in point.
Dogmaticus
The “why” is simple
NDK is still building junky boats and newbies need to be warned about it. Additionally, if no one complains, there will never be any hope that Nigel Dennis will get his act together.
I could just as easily ask why you keep defending poor construction using cheap, low strength materials and little quality control? Do you honestly believe that’s the best way to build a kayak? Do you not believe that other manufacturers build better quality boats?
yep
– Last Updated: Jan-17-08 10:47 AM EST –
worth putting in pivoting rudder controls and not push/pull for racing/rough water. You might consider a Seaward or Sealine rudder as the stock Feathercraft rudder isn't that efficient or deep. The hull is rockered so the stock feathercraft doesn't extend very far down below the depth of the keel. Which IS something you'll notice in waves for a maneuverable boat as the stern slides/catches. Also the Feathercraft blade isn't that strong for use in waves.
The review for the ST on paddling.net was done by a CLC employee.
Some of the descriptions are contradictory:
http://www.clcboats.com/notesfromourshop/spring2002.php
"The concept is basically our North Bay Greenland-style hull on steroids, with the same narrow, swoopy lines. Unlike the North Bay, however, the stern has been tweaked to take a rudder." A rudder, in fact, is a good idea on a tandem of this size and tracking ability. "
The Northbay was low rocker with strong tendency to broach in a wave(since discontinued as lack of pre-production testing came back and bit them with negative reviews), the ST has lots of rocker and really doesn't track hard, the rudder is useful to aid tracking. At the time the ST was sitting around the "Team CLC" was taking their BIG double out in Watertribe adventure races discovering the limits to the Feathercraft double rudder in rough use. They (Brandon/Heather) found the Feathercraft double blade bending from wave action alone with a big guy behind the footbraces. That's why I recommend a different rudder and rudder controls for large wave and rough use. For flat water use I don't think it's an issue.
oh great pedant…
– Last Updated: Jan-17-08 9:13 PM EST –
i think no matter what anyone asks on any string from now on, you should drop all pretense and just type what you have up there....nice job of proving 1 and glossing over 2.
And you completely avoided…
…answering my questions. Talk about the pot calling the kettle “black”…
absolutely not
…any more than I think one shitty NDK is representative of the entire fleet.
those questions were based on false prem
– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 11:56 AM EST –
ise.
Once again and for the umpteenth time: no one is saying NDK quality is beyond reproach. People are saying it's incredibly variable.
And people are saying that absolute positions using derogatory and subjective terms aren't always the most effective.
I don't know you but you have this M.O: criticize something absolutely. Employ subjective terms. When someone disagrees with you, mischaracterize their point and question their experience. It dilutes the input you draw from your experience.
I’m surprised …
… at the total absence of passion in this thread!
Sang Froid
The problem is…
…there’s a LOT more that “one shitty NDK”.