Hey again everyone. I am going to try out a new NDK Greenlander PRO tomorrow. As mentioned before, I currently paddle a p&h sirius. Anyone with any expierence with the Greenlander pro? Any opinions will be greatly appreciated.
interesting way it carves on waves
After reading Jed's reply, mine really looks lame, my apology. I just gave it such a quick answer it is such a good boat, that does not come through in my answer. I have far less experience, in the boat than Jed has. My 5 trips in one, say he is right on. It is a really good boat with a particular way of handling that is darn good for many and way good for some, that is what I should have said.
If you like this the way the chines work, you and hold a firm edge on wave slopes, carving along, rathher different than boats with very soft chines that slip and slide more. Either advantage or disadvantage depending your your style and preferences.
a fast boat . . loved by many . .
. . . frustrating to some.
I have one in my fleet. After staying away from it for the 1st year or so, I was forced to come to grips with it after I wore through the other boats.
The GP is F-A-S-T fast w/ ton’s of cargo space & enough cockpit room for the 200# and up crowd. While not initially as rock-solid as an Explorer at my weight, you quickly come to grips with the trade-offs.
This boat is made to go far and fast with as much gear as you care to stuff into it. The bow is a bit fine, so it tends to ride up the waves a bit more gently than a boat with volume way out at the ends. The bow floats a bit high and with nearly flat bottom panels is likes to climb up on top of the water making the boat feel fast and easy to keep at 5+ knots for extended periods if the paddler is up to the task. I never got mine over 6.5 knots in a sprint but then I’m not a particularly fast paddler.
The stern is a bit loose, not necessarily a bad thing but something one gets use to. This means the boat turns quickly, faster than it’s length might imply. It also means it can be a bit entertaining in following seas before you get use to handling it in conditions. These days this is my tripping and longer distance open-water boat.
Bottom-line a great boat!
I’ve got one and I’m very happy with the design. However, NDK’s have received a lot of criticism for poor quality workmanship. Do a search of the archives here and I think you will come up with a lot of information.
How about a not 200# paddler?
Hey, Jed – how would it be for me? (175 / 5’8"). It’s a boat I’ve been eyeing for a while, but haven’t paddled yet. Your review got my attention.
Specifics to generalities
Most of the people I know that own NDK GP’s are significantly smaller (both in height and volume) and lighter than I am. I think like any boat the taller and heavier one is up top the more tender the boat feels. You should ask other owners to find out how if works for smaller/lighter paddlers since my perspective is somewhat biased by my personal experiences with the boat and with my body.
My sense is that lighter people find the boat quite stable, while 200#+ crowd finds it a bit tender at first without a load. Once loaded with a comfortable w/e’s worth of gear, the boat was rock-solid for me. I estimate the total weight of me and gear to be about 300# at the time.
These days I most often paddle the boat nearly empty (recovering boy-scout / gear hound) and find it quite lively and responsive. You are welcome to try my boat if you want to demo it.
and NDK has revamped alot of their QC issues.
Bought mine last year and love it, and I weigh
175 lbs as well. The hard chines took a bit of getting use to tho. Actually took it out in very shallow water for a good 3-4 hour practice on bracing, sculling, and whatever else needed to get back to the old comfort zone.
It is a completely different boat compare to my
CD Scirroco, but now I enjoy it immensly.
I would definitely demo one first though.
I’m your weight, but taller
I don’t own a Greenlander, but I have paddled both the Greenlander and Greenlander Pro on several occasions. I agree with Jed that the boat is fast, though is seemed a bit slow to accellerate. I found it quite stable, but I’m used to Pintails, Anas Acutas and skin-on-frame boats. I didn’t noticed any glaring vices in the Greenlanders handling.
The Greenlanders are big boats, somewhat out of character with the implications of the name. As Jed said, they hold a lot of stuff under their high decks. Unless you’re planning on doing extended trips, you might prefer a boat with a more “intimate” fit.
NDK claims to have “revamped alot of their QC issues”. I’m glad that you’re happy with your boat, but I know a couple of recent buyers who would differ with NDK’s quality improvement claims. One was so disgusted that he refused to accept the boat and bought another brand. He had owned another NDK boat previously and had even visited the factory.
Addendum - the rest of the story
is that same guy soon sold that boat and bought another Explorer from NDK.
It seems for NDK owners, it’s about the hull and little else. Most of the smaller problems can easily be remedied and if the problem is to big, look at another sample of the boat.
The one I know
The paddler with whom I exchange email, and posts regularly here,who got rid of his Greenlander Pro and bought another Explorer did not do it because of any quality issues with the Greenlander. Actually he quite enjoyed the boat, but finds the Explorer more appropriate to an array of situations
I can understand that . .
I’m fortunate enough to have both and there are real differences in how they paddle. The Explorer is head and shoulders more predictable / natural for me, and while the Greenlander Pro makes me work a bit harder at some things it really performs on another level when you push it. I also own a Romany and an Avocet, and between the four boats I rarely lust after any boats that I don’t already have
The guy I think Brian was referring to had been a long time NDK Explorer owner, has been to ASSC in Wales (more than once?) and ordered a Carbon Explorer only to have it arrive after a delay (and after having sold his previous Explorer) in condition that he found unacceptable. He then purchased a hot new Chatham 18 but found it did not fit well within his fleet as a replacement for his Explorer and eventually sold the Chatham to buy another Explorer.
The point of the story is that even with improvements in quality control, the NDK boats are not the objets d’art that some of the NA companies seem to produce so regularly. Necky, CD and other NA manufacturers produce beautifully finished composite boats. But for those people that favor British boats, there is a certain personality that the British boats seem to have that cannot be found elsewhere. Similar I assume to the way British sports car enthusiasts feel about there cars. They aren’t perfect but there is something that keeps people coming back to the same designs even if the electronics are a bit quirky.
There are enough different boats and different manufacturers out there to fit everyone’s needs. Each boat is a collection of compromises. For some people the quality stuff can be a bit of a large pill to swallow but for others it’s a minor thing in the grand scheme.
You’ve Summed It Up
Quite succinctly. People buy the NDKs for the hulls (although this bothers me that there should have to be a concession such as this, if so many oither manufacturers can get the QC nailed). Still, it fits the traditional British persona. Ever own an original Mini Cooper, Triumph motorcycle, etc? I’ve spent time in the British automotive and motorcyle realms, and let’s just say that ‘hobby’ sums them up nicely-full time. Thank goodness kayaks have few moving parts, not to mention Lucas electrics. Sold my Explorer not long ago, after justifying that since I’ve gravitated to the racing end of the sport, my QCC was all that I would want/need in my fleet. Thing is, I find myself missing those qualities and am now kicking myself for not hanging on to it. Watching ‘This is the Sea’, which basically views like an NDK ad, only cements that it is an outstanding design, good at everything, and comfortably, reliably predictable, a good friend. I loved that boat. QC, yes, there were a few issues, the largest being I snapped the seat out of it, which annoyed me greatly. Thankfully the shop where I purchased it glassed in a new one sent from across the pond (accompanied by an e mail of apology from Nigel D.) so that it was far stronger than before. Mine was a dry one, not a droplet of water anywhere, and very few imperfections in the gel coat, save around the slider skeg control and compass recess. Heavy sucker, though I’ve yet to paddle a more predictable and competent rough water/in the wind boat, although people keep telling me to try an Aquanaut. Plus, what a beautiful boat in the water, simply classic and gorgeous, and a superb roller. Just wish it were a lot faster, something the Greenlander Pro evidently offers, although not in the same league as boats like the QCCs and Epics. Would like to test paddle a Greenlander Pro, liking the hard chine feel of boats like the NF Legend, but wonder if I’d like it as much after spending so much time in my soft chine QCC. Hmmm.
On the advice to try an Aquanaut, you should. My husband has one and has found it to be both fast and solid in all kinds of conditions. Pretty lively side to side, but it takes just a few minutes to find out the secondary is so solid that it ain’t going anywhere to be concerned about. Rolls very well too - a friend of ours from a white water background tried it and found that when she came up the first time she just kept going. She had to take a little impulsion off her roll to just do one.
My boat is an Explorer LV, and yeah what a comfortable and reliable thing she is! I can see getting a boat with quircky handling as I get better, but I’d never let go of the LV. And this is the boat that I am finally getting a roll with - I have been way slow on that. (I got a good one, re the QC issues.)
On the original point, I wasn’t going to comment before because my time in the Greenlander Pro was quite limited. It’s too big for me anyway, but the biggest thing was that I felt was not going to be a match was its handling personality. As stated above, it is a boat that wants an aggressive paddler who will take it fully over onto the chine to manuver. Not at all like a softer chined or round hulled boat that gives you some response as you approach the sweet spot.
But it is fast and has an impressive amount of storage capacity.
The point is…
...that despite the rhetoric to the contrary, it appears that little has changed at NDK, quality wise. It's still a crapshoot as to whether you'll get a good boat or not. It's a damn shame, since as you point out, the designs are outstanding. If only Nigel would pull his head out of his...well, 'nuff said.
NF Legend etc…
Go ahead and try a Legend. The Foster boats are pretty wonderful. How can you beat good British design and great Canadian (Seaward) manufacture?
As you have grown to like speed, the Foster boats are about the fastest Brit boats (not counting Kirton). Actually sexier in feel and faster than a Legend is the Azul Sultan.
As far as the Aquanaut - I love mine. So far, those agressive paddlers who have tried it are very impressed. It is faster than an Explorer though not as fast as a Legend. It has a livlier hull than the Explorer with lower primary and higher secondary stability. It handles following seas better than an Explorer. It has the best manners of any boat I’ve paddled in conditions.
One for sale
There’s a post on www.hudsonvalleyadventures.com of a NDK Greenlander for sale by some gentleman in NJ. Don’t know if it’s still around but it might be worth looking into.
See you on the water,
Greenlander Pro For Sale
I’m the one that’s selling the Pro and yes it’s still available. The kayak is currently down at Atlantic Kayak in Alexandria, VA. They are trying to sell it for me. If it doesn’t sell by Spring, I’ll probably bring it up to Jersey Paddler and have them sell it for me. The boat is in mint condition, yellow/white, 37" front bulkhead, front rope skeg, Silva 70P compass, $1800 firm. Anyone can e-mail me for more details.
this ole tune?
coupla things -
- my explorer was pristine upon delivery. not a blemish, wrinkle…nada. out of the bubble wrap beautiful.
- yup, that fella (i’ve paddled with him) got refused the NDK and bought a chatham…and after owning that briefly, bought an explorer. huh…and after those QC issues? what gives? ohh yeah…for him, it was a better boat.
- after having been to the ndk factory where the boats (and okay, i am waaaay in the NDK corner, i’ll be right up front) are built and seen how they stacked like cordwood before being fully cured…okay, yes, there’s room to tweak QC. lots. i was fortunate with my boat.
but really, after all that has been said on this board about QC and NDK, do you have a compulsion to revisit this issue every 30 days or so? is it cyclical with you? “we haven’t bashed nigel in while…let’s beat that drum?” come on brian, you’re becoming a one trick pony.
qc is an issue. accepted.
i don’t know that whether or not you knew about the fella that refused his ndk, bought a chatham and then ditched it for an explorer…but wow…doesn’t the WHOLE story really, really not illustrate your point? damn facts…don’t let them get in the way of a good story…hell, you oughta work for the herald!
to paraphrase a friend concerning his NDK “you will pry that boat out of my cold, wet, dead fingers.”
and do you know why ndk owners feel like that about their boats? performance.
please…you gotta stop banging that QC drum…afyer having read so very many of them from you, you’re coming off more like a guy with a grudge than anything else.
I certainly didn’t expect to get that many replies for the Greenlander Pro. I tried it out in 50km/h gusts and temps somenwere around -10 degrees. Chilly , windy day. Ocean temps, I am not sure.
I did truly enjoy paddling the Greenlander Pro, howver, nothing about it stood out over the P&H Sirius. I couldn’t seem to justify switching to the NDK Greenlander Pro. Having said that, it seemed like a great boat, good control, easy edging and bracing. All of which I found it great amounts in the Sirius. Still the Greenlander was a great boat, adn I would recommend to many paddlers. Sorry guys, I’ve been a P&H fan since my first boat, and have never owned anything outside their line. BUT thanks for you input, it really helped me get to know the boat before I tried it out.
Gonna stick with my Sirius!