design
A couple of NDK’s designs are really nice. The Romany and for me the original Greenlander are exceptional designs. They are fairly high priced kayaks so one would expect that you’re paying for high quality, but that’s the rub, you’re paying for lousy quality and paying a premium price for it.
Too bad, I like the boats, but won’t pay for another one.
Bill H.
Look in the mirror, Rick
You’re the one that’s raving.
Parenting Issue? NM
happy owner
I hade my deck fitting pop out when paddling with Nigel. He acted as if it was a good opportunity for me to learn how to fix my boat of some incidental little annoyance. I have had that opportunity more than once since. I have tried and I own other boats but always seem to paddle NDK boats more than any other manufacturer. I think the incidental repairs are an annoyance but can be fixed. I have never paddled a QCC and they seem to have a quality reputation opposite of NDK. However, from what I read on p-net, the have leaky hatches and a bad skeg design which are more than an annoyance because that cannot be fixed. I like NDK boats so I buy them and I am handy enough to fix the little stuff and my gear stays dry because the hatches have never leaked. The two NDK boats I have now have never had a problem with the back band hangers; one is over 10 years old. Sorry I do not mean to start a fight between QCC and NDK cults…
the ole…
i know you are but what am i defense.
well played.
I really don’t see where much of what
has been said here is wrong. NDK make a highly desireable kayak, I own one and like it very much. It is also true that NDK is at the very back of the pack when it comes to quality control, or so it appears. Brian and I don’t see eye to eye on very many issues, particularly my nationalist business positions. I think Brian almost always makes measured and rational comments about these sort of issues. In fact he is to my disappointment almost completely unemotional. I cannot find inaccuracies in his posts on this subject, although I would like further clarification on NDK’s use of chop vs. woven cloth. I have seen Brians craftsmenship first hand and it is impressive. I can see where it offends his sensibilities when NDK continues to produce its boats as though their designs warrant the purchase no matter what. I do think that in part this is what is going on here. The boats in my eyes are good enough, and it is worth putting up with “some” issues to get your hands on one. As is the case with most arguments, the truth is somewhere in the middle. NDK is neither good nor horrible, they are well below average on quality. I agree with many here saying " I love my NDK" I also agree with Brian when expressing his anger over “any” company that does not address known defects and inherent flaws. I wish Brian would be willing to speak out in a similar fashion when it comes to Toyota’s repeated and systemic quality problems, and more importantly, the similar type of arrogance they display in addressing them when compared to NDK. Sometimes people can live a long time on just their reputation. God knows I can’t and maybe that is the rub. Bill
It’s how they work
– Last Updated: Nov-20-10 9:41 AM EST –
(And how many times did this get said just in the two threads over the last couple of weeks? Is there a mass attack of deafness?)
I'm not a "highly skilled paddler". But I don't think any who are would disagree with what follows, even the ones who have switched because they are part of Team P&H.
Our NDK boats won't solve world hunger or win a prettiest coaming competition. They will get us home in crappy conditions on a day when we are coming in dead tired and less than alert. I'm sure most here have had those days. They will support the most challenging skill or conditions we want to take on from tidal races to greenland rolling to snotty offshore crap. They will get a complete newbie out on the water for the first time and give them enough confidence to want to come out again, even if the conditions get a bit messy. Especially for someone my size, they have a great keyhole cockpit that affords really good contact. I have dropped my Explorer on concrete and it paddled back just fine. All I had to do was replace all the gel coat from the keel down for a couple of inches.
We have a few other boats in the stable including a Valley Aquanaut, a Nordkapp LV, a P&H Vela and a DS RM Elaho. These are all great boats, in fact the Vela is my main use boat. But none of them cover the full range of the above quite as well as the Explorer/Romany.
It’s the selection
If there is anyone who owns an NDK boat and has a coaming that doesn’t look like it was cut by kids I haven’t met them. And since they don’t cover it up like some other makers, you really get to see it. There seem to be other issues that show up, though personally we haven’t had them with either of our NDK boats.
There is a bit of a leak into the day hatch on the Romany, but I can name any number of manufacturers who have had that as a persistent problem on their boats over years. At least 2 North American companies… My Explorer LV is bone dry.
So no - if you look at the above replies from NDK owners no one is saying their boats are perfect.
However - if all you read is Brian’s stuff you’d think it was impossible for NDK to make a single boat that works well and can hold up to hard use. And that simply flies in the face of the actual experience of many NDK owners, at least any that I’ve met.
Brian also makes it sound like all other manufacturers permanently correct their QC issues. Again, something that flies in the face of the actual experience of many people with whom we have paddled. I am not into dissing a kayak manufacturer myself. But we could name manufacturers and boats where over a period of years, a significant proportion of people we know have had to have their first boat replaced with a new one for the same cause. But after the second try they generally got it right, and the paddlers are happy with their boats.
I would laugh if it wasn’t sad
sanfrost says:
“I hade my deck fitting pop out when paddling with Nigel. He acted as if it was a good opportunity for me to learn how to fix my boat of some incidental little annoyance. I have had that opportunity more than once since. I have tried and I own other boats but always seem to paddle NDK boats more than any other manufacturer.”
Excuse me?
Nothing in that last post is new; I’ve said it all before. I guess you must have been asleep in class. 
No Rick, just pointing out the truth
– Last Updated: Nov-20-10 5:07 PM EST –
You're the one who seems on the edge of having a stroke over this. You can try to project your anger/frustration/indignation/whatever onto me as much as you want, but that will never make it true. I can always count on you to chime in and turn a discussion about boats into a personal pissing contest, then try to blame me for it. Good luck with that.
How they paddle and fit
What those I know like best about their chosen NDK boat(s) is how it feels to sit in one and paddle and play.
The rest is commentary…
How about I speak for myself?
– Last Updated: Nov-20-10 4:56 PM EST –
What I've said is that NDK uses poor quality materials and unsuitable, antiquated construction methods. The end result is excessively heavy boats with a brittle layup that is not forgiving when it fails. I've seen and repaired enough of those failures to know that I would never buy a boat built that way. Some people might even say that the construction is a defect in itself.
Do they hold up OK for many paddlers? Sure, but it depends on the particular boat (see the next paragraph) and the way it's used. However, you can buy better built, more durable, lighter weight boats for equal or lower cost. NDK could make their boats that way too, but they choose not to. The question is: Why not?
On top of that, the quality issues make buying an NDK boat somewhat of a crapshoot. Is it possible that you'll get one with no defects? Of course. Is it also possible that you'll get one with a major layup defect that could compromise your safety? You bet and I've seen some. Will you likely get one with several annoying, though not catastrophic defects? Yeah, that seems to be the most common scenario. Moreover, this has always been the case with them and it doesn't seem to have gotten significantly better over time. Again, the question is: Why not?
As for other manufacturers, I haven't seen any that have had quality problems and not made an effort to fix them. If you know of any, post the information here, as people deserve to know before buying a boat. North American manufacturers as a group are known for building high-quality boats. Is it possible to get a defective boat from an otherwise reputable manufacturer? Yes it is and it happens, but what are the odds compared to those of getting a defective NDK?
Other companies that were not exactly known for the quality of their earlier boats - specifically Valley and P&H - have made huge advances in their construction methods and quality control. They come from the same island as NDK, too. So why haven't all three companies made the same progress?
Let me reiterate one more thing, I am not criticizing NDK's designs or the way they handle on the water. They're very good in that regard, which is the only reason that people put up with their flaws. If the designs were merely average, NDK would have gone belly-up long ago.
Brain, when did you last
HAVE SEX! Jeez man you’re obsessive. Tell us several more times the same stuff over and over and over…
As an R&D guy who’s designed boats I have aknowledged your comments as valid, and even said I’d pass them on to Nigel, as apparently you have not done so directly. Then that gets ya pissy?? What is left undone for you here???
You’re a smart guy who knows boat construction and has made valid points. I think folk get it, but… Guess what? Not everyone cares. Nigel’s orders are as high as they have ever been and latest boats have improved. Is it an opinion or a crusade? Really weird bro… really weird.
You know one now
My Explorer LV’s coaming cutout is rough. But my Pilgrim Expedition’s is very nicely done.
What bothers me about these threads is how many of the comments pertain to older NDK boats. The comments are made as if nothing has changed whatsoever. Well, I don’t know how much change NDK has made overall, but I can truthfully state that my new NDK is much more cosmetically clean than my old one, and the glasswork reflects the high level of care taken during the build.
The other point, which I made earlier, is that even with cosmetic flaws, the Explorer LV has always been watertight and worked perfectly well. When/if I sell it, I won’t be firesaling it. It’s still a far cry better than a prettier boat that leaks, or handles poorly.
Looks like cabin fever has already struck some regions…
It’s a new psychological profile…
…serial negatron.
Deck fittings popping out
– Last Updated: Nov-21-10 8:20 AM EST –
Suffice to say this is not a rare event in Incident Management classes across a bunch of manufacturers, and I've personally seen it happen in boats made by more than one manufacturer in pretty light use.
No one I know of ever decided it was a reason to abandon that brand - other factors weighed in when they did switch. That issue combined with a deck that wasn't reinforced for rescues, things that tend to be broader issues across a product line.
NDK
The big problem with NDK really is it’s customers. If they demanded better quality it would likely improve. Since they seem to happily pay for lousy quality there’s no reason for NDK to change they way they do things.
Yes cosmetically the newer NDK’s are much nicer than they once were, but they are still built using grossly outdated construction methods and materials. No matter what anyone says, chopper gun boats are as bad as fiberglass gets.
Bill H.
Could somebody please give an
accurate description of the NDK lay up. It sounds as though it is something like: mold-mold release- polyester gelcoat- glass mat- CHOPPER GLASS?- glass mat- white resin. Are they spraying chop directly onto the gelcoat? There are different ways to use chop, some are far more concerning than others. Limited use between two layers of mat is less of a concern for me. If this post is going to be fact based and accurate, it sure would help to know what the lay up is versus just using the word “Chopper”.
Bill
Chopper glass is not suitable…
…for thin hulls like kayaks simply because you cannot control the thickness of the glass application accurately. It’s meant for making thick hulls. If you have a hull that’s 1/2" thick and you vary by 1/16" in spots, it’s probably not a big deal. However, when you’re dealing with kayak hulls that are only ~1/8" thick, it’s the difference between having glass and having little or no glass. This probably explains the issues that NDK has had with boats with nothing but gelcoat in some areas of the hull. Additionally, chopper glass is prone to “bridging” in confined spaces like the bow and stern of kayaks. Instead of covering the surface, the fibers bridge across the gap along the keel creating bubbles in the layup.
I would be willing to bet that if you contacted manufacturers of chopper guns and told them that you were going to use them to make thin hulls with tight spaced like kayaks, they’d tell you that their equipment is not meant for that type of application.