you don’t get it
You have every right to parade in here regularly and point out NDK’s QC issues. And I have every right to tell you that my experience and others’ is different than yours. But I really don’t know what you hope to accomplish. As you’re aware, the OP pointed out a flaw that could occur with any manufacturer that uses similar seat configuration and components.
I don’t need a seal of approval from you or anyone else regarding what I buy, I don’t need your approval regarding my boat, and clearly NDK aren’t responsive to the QC issues you and others bring to light and yes, sometimes exaggerate. I’m not a member of some club or an “NDK faithful” just because I don’t see things the way you do.
Swift
My understanding is that QCC started off building boats for Swift http://www.swiftcanoe.com/ and later built under their own name.
QCC (and Swift) kayaks fit sensibility is quite different from those boats whose fit has been influenced by ww and/or other rough water play. For example the last I knew thigh braces (or serviceable flanges)were optional on QCC boats… A true keyhole as in NDK boats is not part of the QCC ethos…
That was a one-off boat
made from a tool that was made from an old Explorer provided by Tom Bergh. It was entirely made from this new material combined with soric core. It was an epoxy resin, infused, and post cured. We learned a lot about the material in the R&D process and I would build the next version very differently. Weight might go up about two lbs but I believe the matrix would be stiffer and tougher.
Like Kevlar this new material is strong in tension, and like Kevlar it resists bonding and may be prone to interlaminar breakdown over time. Like Kevlar I believe it needs to be combined with other materials to provide a longer lasting tough matrix. Unlike Kevlar the material is NOT hydroscopic, and it’s even lighter and tougher.
Very promising, BUT, it will require infusion and epoxy resins I believe, which will make the boats expensive. Every material has it’s working characteristics and this one is not easy.
There are no plans to build any more at this time that I am aware of.
People flock to whatever their
chosen guru paddles. If guru goes with other sponsorship they will rationalize why they need to “upgrade”.
They haven’t grasped the fact that the boat is a really small part of the picture.
It’s marketing, it’s effective.
Agree Nomad
It’s what I tried to say way early on this thread. Lots of issues with many manufacturers at some time or another.
These discussions are driven by emotion Vs facts to a large degree.
I would not assume that any future light weight boat from NDK would be weaker or less durable.
one off
plans change. that’d be an excellent candidate in my purely selfish, boat lusting opinion.
Hah, it’s a rough first shot.
Not even close to what I would consider a worthy specimen. BTW, thanks! I appreciate your confidence, but it’s just a baby step. Probably need about ten versions of various matrix lay-ups before we get it right. Nothing on the radar for now. Lendal is taking top priority.
nice baby step
it paddled very nicely.
a buddy and i came back in after a few hours playing in some surf and on some “soft” rocks with that boat and had cheek cramping grins. light as hell, acceleration galore, turns like a much smaller boat - you can get into and outta trouble quick. flexed on the rocks a bit but no big whup, no cracks in the gel or anything - did as it was designed to do. nice. we joked that the boat was dangerous in the things it makes you think you can do. it was a sweet prototype salty!
nurturing lendal back from where johnson parked it out back takes precedence but it’d be sweet as hell if anyone circled back around to that boat. long time since a “new” boat made me grin like that.
Funny
For someone who claims he doesn’t care about what others think, you get awfully worked up when someone criticizes NDK. Everything that’s been said here about their problems is true. Are you disputing that?
Have I told you or anyone else not to buy an NDK boat or have I criticized anyone for doing so? No, I haven’t. All I’ve done is point out the obvious, ongoing issues they’ve had with using poor-quality materials, antiquated construction techniques and shoddy quality control, and how far behind the rest of the industry they are in those areas. It’s up to whoever reads this to decide whether they want to buy an NDK boat, knowing those issues exist. Whether you like it or not, it’s simply a matter of putting the information out there so people can make informed choices.
Let’s see
"Lots of issues with many manufacturers at some time or another."
True, and typically manufacurers correct those problems and they don’t recur. The one glaring exception is NDK.
“These discussions are driven by emotion Vs facts to a large degree.”
Really? Please point out where any of the facts stated here are untrue.
“I would not assume that any future light weight boat from NDK would be weaker or less durable.”
And you shouldn’t, since it’s easy to build a lighter boat that’s stronger than what they build now, simply by using better materials (glass cloth and vinylester resin) and more advanced techniques (vacuum bagging or resin infusion). Doing that alone could knock off 10# while creating a more durable boat. If you try to push the limits of light weight (25-30#), some sacrifice in durability is inevitable, but there’s no need to go to that extreme.
Nice to hear…thanks
Thanks for the thoughts, I will pass
these on to Nigel personally. In the future I would encourage you to be more direct and push your beliefs more. Your ideas are great, it’s just been so hard to extract them from you, so keep up the growth you’ve displayed here in communicating!
Regards, Salty
putting the info out there
– Last Updated: Nov-19-10 12:01 PM EST –
First of all, you care about my opinion equally so or we wouldn't be having this discussion, and you wouldn't feel the need to respond to people by labeling them into one category as NDK apologists. If you could see past your subjectivity you'd comprehend that I've written many times that yes, NDK has QC issues surpassing the other boat makers. So let's set that juvenility aside.
Secondly, yes, I do take issue with some of the things said here and the reason I do is because they don't parallel my own experience.
My general objection to this thread is that whenever a thread appears with NDK as the topic, it invariably turns to discussion and distortion of the brand's QC issues. In short, I could not agree more with salty above.
Ayup…
Manufacturers never have recurring problems…
You’ve put great stuff up here on boat repair and rigging that many have used to help themselves. Lots of people have that to thank you for. But I have to think that if you expended half of the emotional energy you have for dissing a kayak maker to helping some non-profit, some corner of the world might be improved.
I think I can understand
– Last Updated: Nov-19-10 1:45 PM EST –
Perhaps if we were talking about QC issues for emotion kayaks (or pick another low-rent brand), it would pass under bnystrom's radar. Perhaps the fact that they have a proven expedition history and good hull designs makes the QC issues all the more frustrating. It's how I used to feel about my old Fiat. But I still drove the hell out of it.
I'm just projecting here but if that's the case I can understand.
great post
You would have to think that the brand is and has been used for expedition use is also telling. In spite of the chance of catastrophic failure when you need it least. Perhaps, like most other NDK buyers, they perform an inspection before accepting delivery. The same as one should do with any boat.
Dear Salty,
Next time you see Nigel please pass on that you heard from an old fan who has a 1995 Romany. I’ve tried a lot of over boats and keep coming back to the Romany…better than good workmanship, great handling, dry as a bone, and nobody had me drink any kool aid! Terry Brawley
just to…
turn the direction a bit. What exatly is it that so many highly skilled kayakers LIKE about these crafts?
This aint rocket science.Or perhaps it is? hehe…
And is there NO advantages to the way the NDKs are constructed? Perhaps the weight adds to the feel.
I guess this is about feel? Just curious…
NDK - Great Looking Boats!
– Last Updated: Nov-19-10 7:39 PM EST –
Several years ago, helped a person unload their Romany in the Little Tupper Lake, NY parking lot.
That NDK boat immediately attracted the eye; and got me into thinking about upgrading the family kayak fleet.
While we did not end up with Brit boats in our boat shed, I will always remember how beautiful that NDK kayak looked.
To this uninvolved person, seems like a family fight is going on here about good looking, and apparently good paddling NDK boats.
family fight?
If my brother raved like that i’d check his meds.