Looked at a Pilgrim?
If you fit the Explorer LV cockpit (extra small), you may be a better fit in terms of volume for the Pilgrim or Pilgrim Expedition. Maybe harder to find depending on how many have been delivered to your region, but it is also purported to be faster.
You speak with two tongues, and just
won’t admit it.
End of my discussion, so you can have the last word if you so desire
Jack L
Yes, Toyota has serious problems…
– Last Updated: May-10-10 11:23 AM EST –
...but they built very high quality vehicles for decades before they screwed up. They have also recognized that they screwed up and they're taking the steps necessary to correct their errors and win their customers back. While they obviously never should have allowed themselves to make such costly errors, the fact that they're doing the right thing speaks well of their commitment to building quality products. Just watch, in a few years, their current problems will be nothing but a bad memory. If that turns out not to be the case, please feel free to say "I told you so".
As I said before, there is a big difference between a company with a history of high-quality products that screws up and fixes them and one with a history of spotty-quality products that never seem to get much better because the company management simply doesn't care and/or won't make the changes necessary to correct their quality problems.
One tongue, but not single minded
There’s a difference, but I don’t expect you to understand the distinction.
The reasons are simple Celia
Most companies in the kayak industry produce a defective boat now and then or make a design or process change that proves to be problematic. Most companies strive to fix quality problems and most have adopted new manufacturing technologies and practices that produce consistently high quality boats. That’s what it takes to be competitive in the market.
There is one glaring exception and that is NDK. They’re still building boats with low-end materials using outdated methods and there are still questions about the expertise of their workforce. This has been the story for decades and unfortunately, they seem to be content with the status quo. That’s why they continue to have quality problems and why there are so many complaints about their boats. People have come to expect problems with NDK boats and some people even make excuses for them.
People will forgive an occasional hiccup from an otherwise reputable company, but a company that seems not to care about the quality of their products will receive the derision it deserves.
of course not
My only point is that expeditioners may have a different arrangement of priorities. To what extent does this this apply to experienced sea kayakers? I guess it depends on your opinion of NDK quality.
the GM of japan
One could see this coming in the glut of models, the lack of inspiration in their designs and the murmurs of discontented employees. It’s as if they crumpled up their road map and picked GM’s out of the garbage.
I disagree
I know of two people recently who had QC issues with valley products. Add a local distributor and two boats in their fleet in one season and that makes your black-and-white analysis a bit more complex.
utopian
– Last Updated: May-10-10 12:41 PM EST –
These hard numbers are impossible to get. If this was an argument about one of the fortune 500's then getting 'hard numbers' like that would amount to risking your life.
Unique features draw some of us
People who ask why some of us would buy a 2nd boat from NDK should remember that in some cases there is (or was at the time) nothing else that has/had the same combination of features.
With the Explorer LV, at the time I ordered it it was possibly the only one that had the everything-inside cargo volume for two weeks of stuff while still retaining a fairly low deck and not-too-wide beam, AND that wonderful small keyhole cockpit. There are other kayaks now with similar dimensions, but I’ve yet to see one that also has the small keyhole. There may be something I’ve missed, though, given my location.
Then I tried the Pilgrim and liked it better than anything else. I didn’t realize at the time that its beam is quite narrow (NDK lists it at 19.68"), since there was no apparent reduction in stability for me. Keyhole cockpit slightly longer than the one in the LV (nice for planting butt and bringing both legs in together) but leg position good since it’s still a narrow keyhole. When I heard that the Expedition version would be 17’ long but otherwise same dimensions, my first thought was, “That’s what I’d have ordered if it were available back in 2007!”
So what else is there that combines the following:
- Keyhole cockpit sized for ONLY small or medium-height-but-skinny paddlers
- Very narrow beam yet stable enough for loaded touring
- Good balance of maneuverability and tracking
- Enough volume to carry two weeks of camping supplies without putting gear on the deck (other than spare paddle, pump, map case)
- Low enough deck for even shrimps like me to do full layback roll without cockpit mods
- A stock glass seat that actually fits SMALL BUTTS in just the right position!
- Appropriate for wide variety of conditions (not just a fitness boat)
As many flaws as you (and I) can find with NDK, I have to give them credit for producing some kayaks that are meant for those of us who are considerably shorter or more slender than the “average American.”
FWIW- my new carbon kevlar Nordkapp
and my friends new carbon kevlar Pintail both have areas inside the cockpit that were not wetted out properly. My manufacturers tag which is supposed to be covered in resin is bare paper. The clear gelcoat on my boat has a few areas of spidering that would indicate a possible hot batch. My purchase price reflected these issues. I think all manufacturers have problems, NDK has them more frequently than the others. NDK does not have shoddy or dangerous construction issues, if I believed this I would not have just purchased a new Romany. With the exception of this missing cloth under the compass recess just mentioned in this thread, I have no knowledge of any inherent quality flaws that should keep me from buying an NDK product. Once again, please come forward with real evidence of serious quality issues that cannot be repaired by the owner or dealer. I readily acknowledge that NDK cannot deliver a boat that is 100% to customer expectations, while at the same time I am stating that the defects are not serious enough to forego the oustanding designs.
Bill
I agree
My feelings on NDK had always been “no way” until I sat in my ExplorerLV, circa 2004, and had, at last found a boat that fit me. My love affair with Pinkster, which I believe is the only pink ExLV on the east coast, continued until I bought my RomanyLV.
Both boats fit me with a minimum amount of padding, which Tom Bergh put in. Both boats have, as I’ve stated, stood the test of time and conditions. There wasn’t a lot out there, with the exception of the P&H Vela (which I did own and which did not fit me like the NDKs, despite being padded; the boat was sold to a 12 year old who fit it better than I did), at the time and it was serendipity that I tried the NDKs and they worked so well for me.
Since 2006, when I bought my RomanyLV, there are more boats on the market for the smaller paddler. I tried both the NDK Pilgrim and the AvocetLV and went with the latter. Believe me, it was a close call and I wavered back and forth, but I went with Valley not because I distrusted NDK’s quality but because I wanted a boat with a different feel to it, which the AvocetLV has. I also, possibly because of the length of my legs, wasn’t too wild about the knee bumps, either.
I am not a teeny tiny paddler. I have short legs and I’ve left the padding, with the exception of the seat cushion, in the boat plus added some around the thigh braces as I have very mild scoliosis and one of my legs is a tiny bit shorter than the other. So far I am very pleased with the AvocetLV’s performance; it’s one of the first boats I’ve paddled that I feel “at one” with the water.
As I’m essentially a day paddler, I don’t really need a 17+’ kayak for camping. However, if this changed, I’d no doubt take a good long look at the Pilgrim Expedition.
And, as I’ve said more than a few times, it’s what fits you that counts. NDK works for me and no amount of whinging and arguing is going to change it.
Romany speed & maneuvering
Wrong boat for you. If you are looking for a boat better at maneuvering than speed, the Romany is superb. But it is kind of slow for long distances. This is more of a problem for higher weights - if you are smaller than a medium sized man, Romany speed will be less deficient.
interesting
This is obviously a pretty charged topic for a number of folks here. I suppose that’s no suprise. Still, lots of good information. It sounds like Tom Bergh and Maine Kayak is a well-regarded dealer, which certainly makes the equation a bit easier. The local folks who know him have also had positive things to say. And I can’t fault him for being a lawyer, since I’m guilty of that as well.
I was going to ask about experiences with the standard fibreglass v. elite layup, but I think I had my question answered this weekend when I saw a woman at a local festival with a new-ish looking explorer LV elite with two symetrical ugly pinches in the hull. I’m almost certain they resulted from being tied down to a rack mount too hard.
Mikco website
Check out Tom Bergh’s comments at his website (MIKCO or Maine Island Kayak Company), under the section on NDK Manufacturing. If I recollect correctly Tom recommends against the Elite lay-up for ‘heavy expedition use’ or some term to that effect.
I wonder if that includes car-top carrying?
Elite Layup
– Last Updated: May-10-10 4:10 PM EST –
I have an Elite layup Romany which I bought from MIKCo. Tom did try talking me out of it. However my ProLite Aquanaut (also purchased from Tom)weighs in the neighborhood of 60 pounds and I was looking for a day boat I could easily lift on top of a car after a long day paddling.
I've taken my Elite Romany surfing and into tide races. While it is not as bombproof as my Aquanaut or any standard layup NDK boat, it seems as sturdy as many Impex boats I've paddled.
It is possible to deform the hull of a well made composite boat from over tightening straps - I've done it...and not my Romany...
so that’s why we don’t make these
statements quantifying the difference between NDK and other kayaks. Or shouldn’t.
Yep…
“It is possible to deform the hull of a well made composite boat from over tightening straps - I’ve done it…and not my Romany…”
It sure is. I remember the horror of taking my P&H Vela off the car and finding the FG hull squished because of my fear of the boat flying off the car if I didn’t tie it down “tight” enough. On the verge of hysteria, I immediately called the dealer who said that those dents would pop out on their own, and, if not to bring it on over and they’d “help.”
To their credit they refrained from equally hysterical laughter.
NDK
Simple solution to NDK quality: don’t order one, buy it from a reputable dealer. That way you can inspect it closely and if there are issues have them addressed before purchase.
wilsoj2, you mention
wilsoj2, you mention deforming a hull from cinching it down tight, but is not your Romany…
Hmmm, you also mention Impex.
Would that happen to be a K-lite by any chance?
Mine did not need much cinching down, actually none at all.
It deformed just laying on the sandy beach with a pebble under the hull. No BS!
It only occurs in the summer heat above 85F (the sun beating down on the kayak must have helped).
Pictures at: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2010/02/cartopping-sea-kayaks.html