NDK Quality?

There is another thread…
…about a Valley skeg problem that actually proves my point. Yes, they had a problem. However, they recognized that, fixed it on their new boats and are providing parts to customers with older boat that have the problem. That’s the way a reputable company deals with issues like this, you don’t just ignore them and keep making your boats the same way.

Again, why should you have to repair…

– Last Updated: May-11-10 9:43 AM EST –

...a new boat?

Missing fiberglass is not a minor issue. Perhaps it's not a big deal at the compass recess - unless there's no glass - but NDK has had problems with glass missing on hulls and hull-to-deck seams, too. Unfortunately, you have no idea whether a given boat was built correctly when you buy it, you just have to wait to see if anything breaks.

IMO, that's just nuts.

Were your Valley boats "seconds" that were sold at a reduced price? It sounds like you knew about the defects when you bought them.

you are missing the point
Or ignoring it.

You are placing NDK at one end of a spectrum of QC issues, and the rest of the manufacturers at the other end. It simply ain’t so. There have been, and to your point, continue to be, boats supplied by Valley and other manufacturers that show up with QC issues. Some of them are repeats of earlier issues. So, obviously NDK isn’t the only one “not listening” to customers.

Sure, the incidence may be higher. But it’s not an “NDK vs. everyone else” situation.

now you have to tell us:
which brand was it?

Brian, I still have not heard of, or
seen for myself, any major construction flaws in a NDK boat. Many of the people I paddle with have NDK boats, NONE of them have any experiences resembling what you are characterizing. In the case of our carbon/kev Valleys, I was given a discount to deal with any needed repair of the spidering, and the not properly wetted out areas inside the cockpit do not affect the strength of the boat. My friend waited a long time for his Pintail and there was no way he was waiting for another because of this flaw. I stand by my original statement (again), MOST of these issues are repairable by the dealer or the consumer. Maybe NDK ships the good boats to the midwest, because I DON’T SEE IT. Tell me more about what you have seen with your own eyes. I am genuinely interested. Bill

Not an Impex boat
It was a Valley boat strapped down too hard for too long in hot weather and in the sun… It was my negligence not a fault of the boat or its manufacture.

To be fair, I have seen
I have seen scary flaws in NDK boats and have spoken to dealers about the amount of time they have put in trying to make the boats right. I don’t know how much more common such flaws are than from other manufacturers.



The most problematic boat I’ve owned (not an NDK) was replaced with a brand new boat as soon as I contacted the owner of the company.



Every kayak manufacturer has some problems. How common and how they are addressed varies from company to company. The first stop is the dealer from whom you bought the boat. If not satisfied with the response then the manufacturer. I have had exchange with more than one owner/proprietor and been very satisfied with the response.

What are “scary flaws”. I am not being
synical, I really want to know what you guys are talking about because I have not seen it. Wilosj2 do you place NDK in an area of their own as far as quality is concerned? I have them at the back of the pack, but still in the pack. If I saw what I would term as “scary flaws” I would cull them from the pack and say they are not worthy of consideration. I would consider a scary flaw to be an inherent manufacturing flaw that could cause a failure that endangers the paddlers life. This flaw would not be a one off problem that made it to the dealer, but rather something that would be easily repeated because of a poor choice in materials, manufacturing process, or design. I don’t give a darn about NDK and have no dog in this race, I just want to know how a consummate boat whore could be oblivious to these problems.:slight_smile:

Bill

What are "scary flaws"
Brian noted some such as missing fiberglass in the hull. Is that not specific enough?



I’m not going into detail here because the stories are myriad and many of the problems of which I am aware are from a few years ago. I have not purchased an NDK boat in a few years and most of the paddlers I know who paddle NDK have older boats. If you want current stories, talk to NDK dealers.



As long as I have been following British boats (about a decade), the ranking of quality and consistency of manufacture from best to worst has most often been stated as P&H, Valley, NDK. I’ve not seen enough recent NDK (now SKUK) boats to know current quality of build. I would say that my 2008 Valley Nordkapp LV is built as carefully and as well as any P&H boat I’ve seen.



We have 2 Valley, 2 NDK and 1 P&H boat in the household. They are all good boats. We may buy another NDK. If something were to happen to my Romany, I’d get another.


I have seen and repaired NDK flaws…

– Last Updated: May-12-10 10:17 AM EST –

...such as boats with no glass in the skeg area. I've also seen firsthand how brittle the crappy glass mat construction they use is. I've sanded through a half-inch of gelcoat to find a single layer of fiberglass on the keel. I've seen several boats with coamings so low at the back that you can't fit a spray skirt on them without stuffing the bungee in. I've seen lots of broken seats.

The bottom line is that not only are serious defects common on NDK boats, but the basic materials they use in their standard construction are cheap junk and the methods they use to lay up their boats are antiquated and prone to human error. I don't think there is anyone else in the kayak industry building hulls and decks with glass mat. While glass mat and copious quantities of gelcoat may make for a stiff hull that handles a lot of abrasion, it's also brittle and prone to cracking and holing on impact. When it reaches it's stress limits, the failure mode is serious damage that results in leaks or worse. Apparently, that's the way Nigel Dennis thinks kayaks should be built, but it's completely out of step with modern kayak construction techniques. In my opinion, that makes them inherently flawed.

Using better materials (woven fabrics, vinylester or epoxy resins) and construction methods (vacuum bagging or resin infusion) results in lighter, stronger, more resilient, more durable hulls, that resist cracking and holing. It also produces a more consistent product (though as your Valley experience shows, the devil is in the details). That's what everyone else (that I know of) in the industry is doing, so there really is a difference between NDK and everyone else. And it's not like NDK boat prices reflect the cheaper materials, either, as you can get better built boats for the same or less money.

In the end, it's a personal choice as to how one spends their own money and I'm not criticizing anyone's choice, but I think it's important for people to know what they're buying. With NDK, you're getting excellent designs, no doubt, but the materials used are sub-standard, the construction methods are antiquated and serious defects are much more common than with other brands. The resulting boats are very heavy and brittle. The choice is yours, but as long as people keep buying NDK boats despite their deficiencies, there is no incentive for them to change.

I’m curious…

– Last Updated: May-12-10 10:24 AM EST –

...have you tried an Anas Acuta? For a smaller paddler, it would make a fine camping boat.

Regardless, you make a good point. NDK has some great designs and they've done a pretty good job of covering many market niches. If the execution was as good as the designs, they might dominate the market. Sadly, you can only get their designs with their sub-standard construction.

I’ve heard a lot of good things…
…about Tom Berg, though I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting him. He’s done a lot to help customers with boat problems and his reputation is outstanding.

Brian, thank you for the greater detail.

– Last Updated: May-12-10 10:54 AM EST –

So far I am very pleased with my new Romany surf. I guess time will tell because I can promise you my boat will be put to the test. I am not defending NDK, but rather asking why I have not seen this. You have now explained in greater detail what you have seen and I will be on the lookout for these issues. There is a conspicuous lack of support for NDK in this thread, particularly with as many dealers, reps, and sponsored paddlers as we have frequenting this board. By this I mean a technical refuting of the accusations. That alone is very telling. On the other hand, many are stating what I have said, which is "not in my boat". For now, I am from Missouri, but with a weather eye. Bill

No, but would like to
Someone offered his for me to try at Sweetwater, but I forgot (yes, forgot) to do it. Also didn’t try the Impex Force 3 or the Cetus LV whose owners offered. I was so distracted by all the other things going on that these kinds of opportunities fell through the cracks.



Next symposium, hopefully I’ll be “desensitized” enough to pay more attention. Would’ve liked to talk more with some people, met others that I didn’t, etc.

Hey, the boats DO paddle well
I’ve spent enough time in Romanys, Explorers and Greenlanders to understand why people like them, at least from a paddling performance standpoint. The whole quality issue is really a crying shame and there’s no excuse for it.

If you’re feeling adventurous…
…see if you can try a Rumour, too. Probably not the best camping boat (though it does have good bow volume), but it fits small paddlers well. My girlfriend is pretty tiny (5’1, 115#) and she really likes hers. However, she prefers her Anas Acuta or Pintail for camping.

Lack of support…
The hits on NDK are not new news, not is the erratic history in their QC. So for those of us who already made up our minds that we like using these boats, it just isn’t worth chasing every small thing when this issue comes up.



Also, if you really take a look at this thread, you’ll see more actual people who weighed in saying they like their NDK boats warts and all than the number of ardent detractors.

The Pintail that I rented…
felt huge on me. The keyhole cockpit was large enough that I had poor thigh contact. It also felt tall.

I see it the same way
Human nature dictates that people are more likely to voice concerns (or repeat them) then they are to voice approval. h

so what?
This is not a competition. The best thing this thread does is to educate buyers to inspect their boats during purchases. Inspect them well.