Paddled Wednesday and will be again
on Sunday 
No way
This thread is so much better than the paddling with vegeterians thread!
Do any vegeterians out there paddle NDK’s? I know one vegeterian and one vegan who do. I wonder how that effects performance and hull repair?
The first`Explorer I ever saw…
– Last Updated: May-14-10 3:19 PM EST –
at least one that I knew was an Explorer - I was still trying to sort out all the boats on the racks visually - was that boat. The boat was still being held together on the rack with the duck tape that had been used to bring it home. This was the first time we went to MIKCO. It didn't register at the time how recently that boat had been smashed up.
Comment on how people make their boat choices - seeing an Explorer held together with duck tape had no effect on my decision to get one after a few test paddles. It's not always about perfect coaming edges.
Nothing at all wrong with NDK
The only real problem NDK has is getting parts to dealers.They have a tough time keeping up with parts inventory like skegs etc. and it has actually caused dealerships to drop them. Most dealers have to butcher another boat for parts to keep a customer happy. I remember early Valley boats with gel coat blisters and voids and I remember early Necky boats with voids too. I had a P & H with a coaming lip that was too narrow on one side. I ended up fixing it myself because sending it back would be another 6 months.
I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to buy a NDK if that’s what you like. Overall paddlers like them and have very little problems in the vast majority.
Yes, I’ve read Jed’s account…
– Last Updated: May-14-10 9:44 AM EST –
...and the truth is that a better built boat might not have broken the way that one did, at least not to the same extent. Being able to splint a shattered bow with duct tape and spare paddles is not exactly a testament to it's quality or durability.
I've give you an example of my own. I got stuck in a hole in my old Silhouette (hand laid with all cloth, ~55#). The water level was rising and falling with the wave action. At one point, the bow of my boat was pushed under an overhanging rock, then the water level dropped. There was a sharp ledge under the overhang and the bow of the boat ended up being trapped between the overhang and the ledge. As the water dropped the boat was cantilevered over the edge, supporting most of my weight and that of the boat and gear, with only the very stern of the boat still in the water. Think about that, nearly the entire boat hanging unsupported over an edge ~3' from the bow! I half expected the bow to snap off, but other than some nasty crunching sounds, nothing happened, the water came back up and I backed out from under the overhang. Once out of the hole, a quick external inspection showed nothing but some serious gelcoat damage on the keel and some deep scratches on the "beak". After paddling for a couple more hours back to the put-in, I checked the boat inside and found that I had some glass damage - resin failure/delamination on the keel, but the glass was not broken - and I had taken on perhaps a gallon of water through the now porous layup (had I known, strip of duct tape would have sealed it). The repair was easy to do and the boat is still being used today. THAT'S the difference with quality construction and materials. I shudder to think of what would have happened to an NDK boat in the same circumstances.
As for NDKs construction, so now you get ONE layer of cloth and ONE layer of mat? While that's an improvement over all mat, I'm underwhelmed, to say the least. If you want to be impressed, go to a manufacturer that uses vacuum bagging or resin infusion and look at the time and care that's put into the layup process. The difference is night and day.
When it comes to expedition boats for "big name" paddlers, they're all custom-built, not the same off-the-line stuff that the public gets. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Question on your Cetus
Bill, If I recollect correctly you reported that the original skeg on your Cetus lacked enough ‘bite’ and that P&H was going to send you a new retrofit skeg kit.
Did you ever install the new skeg and test it out?
BNy…you’re absolutely correct
in what you’ve been saying. However, the reality is simply that these crudely made, inconsistent kayaks have served very many around the globe well, and held up well overall. Like you, I would build an entirely different matrix and it would be lighter and stronger by far, but ya know, most sea kayakers wouldn’t know the difference. People still think heavy gel-coat is a good thing and “strong”.
Bergh is a friend of mine who would echo what I’ve said and go on to say that as a dealer of several brands over the years, they’ve all had issues, AND, the NDK’s have taken a lot of abuse quite well.
My Romany of years past was full of aesthetic flaws and crude as hell. It served me well for a few years.
So, you are not wrong, but so what? I think people have enough info to make an informed choice and I would suggest that most will be happy with an NDK overall, even with the crude construction. I think this thread illustrates such.
full circle
I think this is where the discussion completed it’s circle.
The topic was NDK quality and a lot of details have been discussed to provide a wealth information about NDK quality. You might choose differently if you don’t plan on playing in the rocks and if you just want a decent boat for L1 and L2 paddles. OTOH - if you play rough and take your boat in elements where you might end up in precarious situations that stress the boat to a point of concern for the type of manufacturing process then will appreciate this entire thread.
So and so’s boats aren’t built any
differently than JQ Publics in an operation like Nigel’s. Custom color scheme, sure, graphics, maybe, but the rest of it ain’t any different. Just a few posts back you were so sure that ol’ Nigel himself was aiming a chop gun at a mold without a woven mat in sight. You could have merely gotten that updated information off the internet, let alone my visual of a spool of mat right at the stern of the hull mould. As far as anecdotal what boat would have broken under this test, all I can say is “I don’t know.”
Dogmaticus
Quality discussion from UK board
A very valuable long thread from UK board on quality!
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46363
Whiskey discussion, cool!
– Last Updated: May-14-10 2:09 PM EST –
Jim, me thinks you cut-and-pasted the wrong link.
Not that I have anything against a discussion on 'quality' whiskey. ;-)
If we now discuss our drinking preferences I think we can easily push this baby over 200 posts!
Not the wrong link
I think the discussion of NDK quality is pretty exhausted. However, the discussion of preferred whiskey for paddling is inexhaustible and not wholly irrelevant
wow
– Last Updated: May-14-10 2:28 PM EST –
this thing is still going? I don't know whether to be ashamed or proud for starting it. Is there a prize for 200 posts?
Kobzol - No, this isn't going to be a boat that will be limited to languid flat water paddles (as Seinfeld would say "not that there's anything wrong with that"). Rather, I want a boat that will hold up well in gnarlier conditions (particuarly surf use) and be a good teaching platform. Basically, something just as bombproof as my Force but more manueverable.
As for drinks, I'm a G&T man. Prefer Tanqueray, but Bombay Sapphire is pretty good too.
Maine coast on a BCU 5* training
Here is the link to Jed’s tale:
http://www.maineislandkayak.com/5star_training.html
I’ve met and paddled with most of the folks who were involved in this training. An interesting and very skilled crew.
hold up well in gnarlier conditions…
– Last Updated: May-14-10 2:36 PM EST –
"...hold up well in gnarlier conditions (particuarly surf use) and be a good teaching platform. Basically, something just as bombproof as my Force but more manueverable."
Have you tried a Chatham 16? Or a Dagger Alchemy?
there is a huge shade of gray
between lanquid paddles and rock gardening
Yes I did, just before I decided to get
rid of it. I figured I would put up with the broaching or learn to minimize it if I could get the boat to track. No way Jose. I really can’t figure it out. The stiffer skeg helped a little, maybe. It probably would help alot in the surf, but I did not get the chance to do that. For a nearly 18 foot boat it has incredible turning ability and maybe this creates some of the tracking issues for me. It could be that my size and shape does not lend itself to the boats design. My boat was an early model and it is also possible that there was something different in my boat versus later production. I wanted that boat to work out in the worst way because it does so much so well!. Once the wind was rear quartering above 10 mph it requred some form of constant correction, usualy a broader sweep to one side combined with some edge. It wears you out and creates muscle tension which creates mind tension. Now the Nordkapp has taken its spot as the most often paddled boat in the stable. Bill
OK… the push for 200
Ardbeg, Edradour and for an american treat Templeton rye from Iowa…
more
Wilsoj2 - no, I haven’t tried the Chatham 16, but it’s on the short list. One of the local shops has one in stock that I’m planning to demo w/in the next month. I’ve read some reports that suggests it’s a bit sluggish compared to the Romany, but no way to know w/out trying it.
Kobzol - you did read the rest of my message, yes? No, it won’t be in rock gardens every day. Not a lot of those around here, and really, if it were, I’d get a RM boat. But I do want something that will stand up to an occasional rock bashing as well as surf conditions.
Brian, Given this do you have an
opinion on the new thermal formed boats being offered by Rockpool and Valley? They are a marginally thicker stock than the current Eddyline boats and made by Eddyline as well. Not going anywhere with this, just want your thoughts if you feel like offering them. It seems that this discussion is some manner talks about fitness for a particular purpose and how keeping up with technology can effect this. These boats are trying to take advantage of a new technique in old technology. Maybe 2% of the paddling community needs a vacum bagged high tech mat lay up that is of extrodinary strength? Bill