I hear you…
The traits you speak of sound much like the handling characteristics of the NF Silhouette that I paddled a number of years ago. It was just a bear in heavy aft quartering seas, even with the skeg fully deployed.
Fwiw, the Silhouette’s skeg had considerable ‘bite’, but it just did not matter in those conditions.
Chatham 16 - Romany
My personal favorite play and schooling boat is a Romany. Not only can I not envision not having a Romany, but I’ve put an array of paddlers in my Romany and seen them smile with how easy the boat is to edge, roll, and control compared with their own. This has been true whether their own boat was a full sea kayak or something less capable.
It is not the boat I paddle when I want speed. For quickness I use my Nordkapp LV for traveling speed I use my Aquanaut. The fastest boat moving through lumpy seas which I have paddled is the Nordlow. However, it is not confidence inspiring and therefore, IMHO, not a good schooling boat.
The Chatham 16 strikes my as the equivalent of a super tuned Romany. (I know Aled feels that role is filled by the Xcite.) The last time I was in a C16 was last Spring. It did not strike me as noticeably slower than my Romany. It felt as confidence inspiring and maybe even easier to edge, static brace, and roll. It is very easy to control and very forgiving.
If you are concerned about quality of build and construction in a play and schooling boat, the Chatham 16 is definitely worth trying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4krrurQJJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dtk818WSiU&feature=related
You’re confused about materials
Allow me clarify what we’re talking about.
Fiberglass is available in several forms, only a few of which are suitable for kayak construction:
- Fiberglass cloth is woven from long strands of fiberglass and it looks like other types of woven cloth. There are various weave types and weights, but the key is that it’s woven from long strands. High quality kayaks are typically constructed using multiple layers of cloth.
- Chopped-strand mat is composed of short strands of glass distributed in random directions, compressed and held together with a light binder that dissolves when resin is applied. It’s considerably thicker than typical 6-9 ounce/yard glass cloth and it absorbs a lot more resin, which is why items built with it are stiffer and heavier for a given degree of strength than similar items constructed with layers of cloth. The “omnidirectional” nature of the fibers and their short length is what allows mat to mold well to complex shapes.
- Loose, short, chopped glass strands can also be applied with a “chopper gun” and sprayed into a mold. This is the crudest form of fiberglass layup and it’s typically used for building much thicker hulls than seen on kayaks. Unlike cloth and mat, which contain an even distribution of glass fibers, the thickness of glass applied with a chopper gun is variable and entirely dependent on the skill of the operator. It’s easy to create thin or thick spots and the fibers can also bridge gaps, creating air pockets in the layup.
So, are you saying that NDK is actually using a chopper gun to build hulls and decks instead of using chopped-strand mat? Really, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! If so, their boats are even more poorly constructed than I thought. If nothing else, that would certainly explain the complaints of missing fiberglass and the highly variable weight of the finished product. Thinking back, I can recall some cases where I’ve looked at a really poorly laid up section and wondered how they could have screwed it up so badly using mat. I guess I have my answer and frankly, it’s mind-boggling.
There is no way I would ever trust MY safety or spend MY money on a kayak built with a chopper gun, especially not by minimum wage kids just out of high school, which is my understanding of who NDK hires (please correct me if that’s not what the workforce you observed at NDK is comprised of). Even with a more skilled workforce, no way!
I guess I was actually giving them too much credit; how ironic is that?
There are pros and cons…
…as with any material. To some degree, thermoformed boats combine characteristics of both rotomolded polyethylne and composite boats.
- They’re typically stiffer and lighter than poly’ boats, like composites.
- The material and molding process ensures that they’re consistently made, both in shape and thickness of the components. In that regard, they may be better than either of the other methods.
- They’re less sensitive to heat than poly’ and are less likely to become misshapen if left in the sun.
- They’re easier to repair than poly boats if they crack, but worn-off material is not as easy to replace as on composite boats.
- The material will degrade over time, so they’re not likely to last as long as a composite boat, which can be “renewed” pretty much indefinitely.
I haven’t seen the boats you mentioned, but I have paddled a few Eddyline boats and they performed well. If the others are built to similar quality standards, they’ll be great boats.
When making a buying decision, it really comes down to what you want/need in a boat. For low price and resistance to abuse and neglect, poly’ rules. For performance, light weight, repair-ability and long-term durability, composites rule. Thermoformed boats are somewhere in the middle, offering similar performance to composites for less money. I can certainly see how they address a need in the kayak market, between the two (historically) dominant construction methods and I expect to see them garner an increasing share of the market, perhaps becoming the dominant technology someday.
If I had to guess, I’d say that poly’ will always dominate the low end of the market, primarily in short, inexpensive rec boats (pretty much a no brainer, there). I suspect that thermoformed boats will come to dominate the touring boat class, as the material’s advantages come into their own once you get into sea kayak lengths. Composites will continue to dominate in racing boats and other ultra-light craft, and a fair number of touring boats will be offered for customers willing to pay the extra money for a “lifetime” boat.
An interesting and very skilled crew.
– Last Updated: May-15-10 2:38 PM EST –
No doubt about that! I consider myself fortunate to have paddled with some of them.
Sluggish compatred to a Romany
– Last Updated: May-16-10 9:43 AM EST –
Give me a break!
Stock seat in your “Nordlow”?
Do you have the stock seat in the boat? Are they still mounting them over an inch off the hull (I haven’t seen a Nordkapp LV yet)? If so, lower it and the difference in stability will amaze you. I lowered the seat in my old Nordkapp HM and it went from feeling twitchy to being as stable as a couch. I found it to be very comfortable in rough water, essentially like an overgrown Pintail, which is my favorite rough water boat.
I eventually sold the Nordkapp for other reasons, but stability was no longer an issue.
Lowered a half inch
– Last Updated: May-16-10 8:41 AM EST –
I lowered the seat a half inch in my Nordlow and it did make a noticeable difference.
It is still not a confidence inspiring boat compared to a Romany, Explorer, Avocet, or Aquanaut. If the stability curves are to be believed the Nordkapp LV has lower stability than a full size 'kapp. The best term I've come upon is "transparent" when referring to the Nordlow stability.
Summary
– Last Updated: May-16-10 9:19 AM EST –
For those just catching up after 147 posts:
NDKs are lousy, with broken seats and leaking hatches and hulls with the strength of ostrich eggs. They're built by high schoolers on summer vacation while Nigel is paddling overseas. NDK can't even keep parts at retailers, causing retailers to ditch them faster than the old fat girlfriend at the high school reunion ("Celeste? No, I don't remember you, Celeste. Sorry."). And bignate is given other purchase options like vacuum-bagged Valleys if he's willing to chop out the seat and sit on a hunk of foam to keep the boat upright.
We can now move on until the next NDK sucks thread begins in 30-60 days.
P.S. Hey, speaking of vacuum bags, anyone seen my old lady?
P.P.S. Nevermind, found her. She's running the Hoover in the bedroom. Gotta go.
a couch?
If we ever meet I’d like you to look at my Nordkapp H20. It’s not couch confidence inspiring although I love the way it moves through the water and the way it fits me.
Just don’t rock the boat…
It ain’t over
till the Pungo gets mentioned.
H2O - Nordkapp LV
I haven’t paddled an H2O in a long time and would welcome the opportunity to so so again.
I genuinely love my Nordkapp LV. Today I had it out on Lake George in stiff winds and chop. Paddling into the wind and seas the boat was a dream. The lumpiness of the lake was such to keep water coming over the bow regularly and not infrequently landing on the spray deck and occasionally hitting my waist - not enough however to be hit in the chest or face…
Once we had the wind to our back the boat surfed wonderfully and I was reminded how fast it picks up speed in following seas.
Though I would not recommend the Nordlow to a novice or as a schooling boat, it can be a blast to paddle!
rudders suck…
there…that’ll get us over 200
Nigel’s production is way UP!
if you fit the LV the H20 would be
if you fit the LV the H20 would be too big for you.
I heard
he is experimenting with new layups here in the US.
Bignate- In response to your original
post. I purchased a Romany Surf a couple of months ago and find its quality so far to be completely up to par. While I have always felt the Romany surf was slow to accelerate, I find the speed to be perfectly acceptable for a boat of its design. I cut the seat out and foamed a new pan, backrest,hips, and underdeck. It feels like a sofa ( I prefer lazy boy) and that is a good thing. I can paddle it all day and keep up with any group of sea kayaks. Bill
I heard that too…
5 years from now, I bet we will be talking completely different about NDK.
Nordlow compared to 'kapp H2O
– Last Updated: May-17-10 12:13 PM EST –
The Nordkapp LV is not a small boat. The cockpit of an H2O and a Nordlow are very close in size. I'm 6', 185 pounds, and it works very nicely for me as a day boat. I've paddled an H2O a couple of times, but not in a few years.
The full size 'kapp is intended to be paddled loaded - it is an expedition boat. The Nordlow is intended to paddle well unladen or with a small paddler and loaded.
Personally I believe that Peter Orton and crew wanted a new sexy playboat for themselves and friends and designed the Nordkapp LV accordingly.
With the stock seat height…
…I agree with you, the boat is anything but confidence inspiring unless it’s loaded with gear. That’s really the issue with Nordkapps; they’re designed as expedition boats and the high seat gives you more leverage to allow you to edge the boat when it’s fully loaded. Unfortunately, when the boat is lightly loaded, the high seat makes it feel unstable. If you lower the seat, the boat feels entirely different. It really is night and day. I lowered the seat in my HM a full inch and it was still ~1/2" off the hull.