Need help choosing my first rigid kayak

@Sincress said:
experienced kayakers seem to be rejecting anything other than true sea kayaks as unsafe.

This isn’t, and hasn’t been said at all here. It’s about using the correct boat for the situation. The intended destination doesn’t match the boats you indicated.

What if I don’t need/want a 5 meter long fiberglass sea kayak with three bulkheads, a drysuit, VHF radios, paddle floats and other equipment?

No problem at all. Just don’t take it out from shore where the other more capable boats (and paddlers, hopefully) are.

Does picking a one-bulkhead kayak or a rec boat make me reckless?

If you use it beyond it’s capabilities, then yes. We haven’t even started to talk about skills and experience; they are mutually exclusive and just as important if not more so.

I’ve said my piece here. I’m on the sidelines until something changes.

Folding kayaks offer advantages of both inflatables and rigid boats. And in your “remote” situation, you can have them shipped from another continent. Take a look at Pakboat’s Quest 150 for another possible option. I’ve owned 4 models of Pakboats and currently paddle the smaller Quest 135. I used float bags with mine, though they have inflatable sponsons inside the hulls to tighten the skin.

https://pakboats.com/quest-150/

@willowleaf said:
Folding kayaks offer advantages of both inflatables and rigid boats. And in your “remote” situation, you can have them shipped from another continent. Take a look at Pakboat’s Quest 150 for another possible option. I’ve owned 4 models of Pakboats and currently paddle the smaller Quest 135. I used float bags with mine, though they have inflatable sponsons inside the hulls to tighten the skin.

https://pakboats.com/quest-150/

This is a very interesting design. I’ll check it out in more detail, looks like a very versatile boat. Thanks for the suggestion

The title of your post indicates that you have an interest in a rigid boat. You then go on and talk about ocean paddling. I understand that maybe a real sea kayak might be a bit more investment than you are prepared for right now.

I strongly suggest that you arrange to try out a sea kayak if that is possible. It might open a whole new perspective for you. It might well be presumptive of me to assume you haven’t experienced a sea kayak, but I don’t believe we would be having this conversation if you had.

@Sincress said:
That’s true, but doesn’t it apply as much to any other sport or situation in life just as much? Or is kayaking considered much more dangerous?

Kayaking can be very dangerous, especially if you exceed the design parameters of your equipment, or if unanticipated conditions occur. Going out for a run by myself isn’t inherently that dangerous but I have been trained to never go scuba diving without a buddy.

Does picking a one-bulkhead kayak or a rec boat make me reckless? Please elaborate.

Not necessarily, as long as you stay within the design parameters of the boat. Going offshore in a one-bulkhead kayak would be reckless.

The two inflatables you mentioned look like fairly capable boats. Look what the manufactures recommend:

Gumotex Framura - “suitable for sheltered waters, harbours, inlets and lakes as well as calm rivers up to Gr. 1 white water.”

The Advanced Elements Expedition (which is a framed/inflatable kayak) - “Lakes, Bays, Inland Waters, Slow Moving Rivers (Class I-II), Coastal/Open Waters.”

The Expedition would certainly be my choice but at 13’ long and 32" wide it’s going to be slow and probably won’t track that well. The “High-back” seat also concerns me a little, as lower backed seats promote torso rotation while paddling much better.

Good luck with your search.

I am enjoying my first season as a kayaker. Lots to learn and absorb. Reading and listening to opinions costs nothing and can save money on needless evolutionary spending not to mention helping prevent injury or death.

While kayaking in the ocean often frightens new paddlers it should be noted that lakes and rivers can also be very dangerous with many variable conditions.

The one factor that strikes me with paddling in the ocean is how different the actual experience is when paddling versus looking down on the water from a hill or coastline. When you are sitting that low in a boat those once tiny looking waves suddenly look and feel way bigger! Often you can’t see the currents but once in the water they become all too real.

Bottom line with this sport: take it seriously, get the best equipment you can afford (used quality gear is way better than brand new cheap gear), take your skill development slowly, and be prepared to experience all that is involved with being tipped into the water…

You make good points. Every boat should be a good choice for a certain situation - even those cheap rec boats should be good for a calm, flat lake in the summer. As for the ocean, there is no ocean where I live. The sea is very calm and there are no currents, big tides, surf… this is what is probably skewing my perception of the dangers you all indicate. Seeing real ocean waves, the massive crashing waves, that’s definitely a different matter than the conditions I have near my home. Any sport is dangerous when practiced incorrectly or when you’re unprepared for the conditions.

As for trying out a sea kayak - there are no kayaking communities here, no trained instructors, no place to rent a real sea boat, no retailers who sell one within 300 km. That’s the unfortunate reality, which is why I turned to these forums in the first place. From what I’ve learned online, I believe a “real” sea kayak is not what I need, but a more easy going, recreation and day-touring oriented boat for exploring coastlines, taking photos or exploring islands.

It is hard buying a boat without actually testing them. Even if you get to sit in one on a lawn the actual on water performance can be quite difficult to guage. Just too many variables with body size, weight, boat size and water conditions. If possible buy a solid popular boat used: you can get your investment back while looking at better alternatives. A boat that seems super comfortable during the first 30 mins can become a spinal “torture device” after two hours.

One other thing: here in the San Juan islands the ocean waters are known for being “big water”. They can be dangerous and kayakers need to have the correct gear and attitude. There are also several fresh water lakes on Orcas Island that I love to paddle on. Mountain Lake in particular: amazing, clear, deep aqua colored water. No waves and very safe looking. This summer a paddle boarder, out for a “safe-summer-easy-going” outing fell off his board and drowned right in front of his friends who could not paddle to him fast enough…

A few photos of my Pakboat Quest 135 (the Pakboat website is a little lacking in gallery images). Set up boat, view of the internal frame and inflatable sponson tubes and on the water. Takes about 25 minutes to set up but I just store it that way all season). Weighs 27 pounds and can be checked on an airline in a standard rolling duffel bag with no excess baggage charges. Being an earlier model, it differs from the Quest 150 in being 18" shorter and not made to paddle without the deck. Other than that it is the same basic design. Very comfortable seat (inflatable fanny cushion and an adjustable lumbar backband) and very slim and fast compared to inflatables. And being low-profile it is not blown around like inflatables can be by winds. Tracks very well.



I made this series of photos on a Flickr album showing the assembly steps for the Quest kayaks if you want to look at it. Don’t be freaked out by how complicated it looks! I made the album to share with other new owners so they could get more close-up detail at some steps than is shown in the factory instructions. Their boats actually go together very nicely and the hull being open until you put the velcroed deck on means less strain than assembling some other folding boat models,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/snapdoodlekid/albums/72157667706271353

@willowleaf that’s a very nice boat you’ve got there, a bit jealous! What kind of maintenance does it require? I live on the fourth floor of an apartment building so any kind of cleaning, drying and desalinizing of kayaks is very difficult.

@PhotoMax it’s very unfortunate, accidents happen all the time. Losing consciousness on the water is often fatal, especially when alone. I do a lot of open water swimming and I do 3-7km lengths alone all the time - I try not to wonder too much how something like that would turn out for me.

Upon further exploration of available options I found this boat which looks almost too good to be true:
https://seabirddesigns.com/product/expedition-afjord/
It’s compact, lightweight, looks quite fast, has two bulkheads and plenty of storage - and it’s actually decently priced for the options. I think that’s my favourite option so far. What do you think?

Interesting info on the Adriatic Sea. Sounds like a lovely place to paddle, keeping in mind this sentence from the article: Although the Adriatic Sea has its known patterns and changes, the sea is always capricious and above all not to be underestimated.

https://www.navaboats.com/blog/posts/2017/december/weather-and-climate-in-the-adriatic-sea/

@Rookie said:
Interesting info on the Adriatic Sea. Sounds like a lovely place to paddle, keeping in mind this sentence from the article: Although the Adriatic Sea has its known patterns and changes, the sea is always capricious and above all not to be underestimated.

https://www.navaboats.com/blog/posts/2017/december/weather-and-climate-in-the-adriatic-sea/

Well, it’s certainly no lake, and we’ve all seen this footage. Any sea can be dangerous when the elements conspire.

Waves don’t have to be big to be scary in a rec boat. 1 foot can be terrifying. The best advice we always give is “buy used.” It sound like that isn’t an option for you. Can you travel elsewhere to buy a used boat? That way you can learn what you like and don’t like without paying full price. I don’t know Europe at all but I’m guessing the Adriatic Sea can have weather and weather can come up quickly.

@NotThePainter said:
Waves don’t have to be big to be scary in a rec boat. 1 foot can be terrifying. The best advice we always give is “buy used.” It sound like that isn’t an option for you. Can you travel elsewhere to buy a used boat? That way you can learn what you like and don’t like without paying full price. I don’t know Europe at all but I’m guessing the Adriatic Sea can have weather and weather can come up quickly.

Yes… unfortunately, as kayaking isn’t really popular around here, there are very few used boats. I do however intend to travel to the dealer and try the boat out before buying it.

As for the weather, the local waters are my backyard and I always keep track of forecasts (and use common sense) to avoid windy days. I’ve been open water swimming for years so that’s not a concern for me. I’m aware that taking a boat into conditions above its grade is dumb, and that going into those conditions without necessary skills is even dumber. I prefer calm seas and low winds while on the water so I’m buying a boat to fit THOSE conditions, and not the worst conditions that could occur.

@Sincress
You said you paddle alone 90% of the time. You always wear a PFD (life jacket), correct?

Folders don’t require a lot of maintenance. Unlike inflatables, they don’t have deep folds that retain moisture when dismantled for storage – mine are usually dry inside and out by the time I get back from paddling – if not they can easily be wiped down with a towel.

You do need to lubricate the aluminum frame joints with Boeshield T-9 to prevent them from freezing together from corrosion if you paddle in salt water and don’t have a way to flush the boat out with fresh water and intend to leave it assembled. You can get little drip bottles or spray bottles at bicycle shops though you might have to get it or something like it from a marine supply shop. And, as with inflatables, you have to remember to open the valves in the blow up sponsons and seats when you bring the boat off the water, especially in hot weather, since expansion with overheating can rupture a seam (all folders come with patch kits and the repairs are simple but not something you want to do a lot.)

Folders are perfect for apartment dwellers which is one reason they are so popular in Europe and Asia, where a lot of people have small living spaces in densely populated cities. In fact my largest folder, the 15’ 9" Feathercraft Wisper I bought from a couple who had two of them – they bought them to spent a month touring the Adriatic and Ionian Sea coasts from Greece to Croatia, camping on beaches out of the kayaks. They sold the two boats to buy a Feathercraft tandem K-2. The Wisper is an amazing boat but Feathercraft closed their business 3 years ago so their models are no longer available unless you find a used one. Quite costly – almost $5,000 new (I paid $2,200 for mine used.)

I know an American who has a vacation home on the Bay of Kotor, Macedonia, off the Adriatic. He uses folding kayaks for their family trips there.

If you are curious about folders, there is a forum at foldingkayaks.org similar to this one that is devoted to all kinds of collapsible boats.

Pakboats is a fairly small operation, located in New Hampshire, USA, though the brand has international distribution. They are pretty responsive to questions if you ever want to contact them about availability and shipping overseas (contact info on their website). The owner and boat designer, Alv Elvestad, is a native of Sweden and often travels back to Europe.

They did suffer a terrible fire earlier this year that burned up one of their warehouses and they lost a couple of hundred boats, but they should have their inventory back up by now (though our idiot president’s trade war with China may be making things tough for a lot of kayak importers, since many of their components and boats are sourced from Asia.)

@willowleaf . A used packboat offered for sale in my area. https://nmi.craigslist.org/boa/d/suttons-bay-pakboat-kayak/6955238078.htm

Inland Seas is an excellent organization and might ship.

@Rookie said:
@Sincress
You said you paddle alone 90% of the time. You always wear a PFD (life jacket), correct?

I don’t wear a PFD in the summer because I swim and dive a lot while kayaking. I do, however, wear it once I have no intention of swimming any more. Mind you, we don’t even wear PFDs (or even have them) while operating pleasure boats and yachts - 95% of the boats here don’t have safety equipment that would be mandatory in the USA such as lifejackets, signal flares, VHF radios and such.

@willowleaf that’s very interesting, a trip from Greece to Croatia sounds like an amazing journey. One thing you do have to understand is that 2200 USD is basically two of my paychecks which is why my kayaking budget is much, much less than that. :frowning:
I think I’ll end up going for a cheaper plastic boat like the Afjord eventually, but that’s not happening until I find a safe place to store it and a way to maintain it.

The Feathercrafts were the most costly folding boats so don’t let that price scare you off. Pakboats are MUCH cheaper. I got my Quest 135 new for $750 when they discontinued that size – they often sell demo boats at a discount. I got my used Pakboat Puffin (a 12’ model) for $500 on Ebay. I bought two 14’ Pakboat Swifts a couple of summers ago for $300 each, but both needed to have the sponsons replaced. I have been making new sponsons but got distracted with other projects and trips since then and am not done yet. When I am done I will probably sell both boats for around $600 each.

Pakboat has listed in their “close-outs” a used Quest 150 in stock for $1280 and a Puffin Saco ( 12’ boat like my Puffin) for $810.

Here is what a 12’ Puffin looks like (I replaced the standard deck on mine with one from an “Arrow” model they used to make.) This is the boat I got for $500 and took to England with me two years ago.