Hi everyone! I’ve come here looking for advice from more experienced paddlers as I’m buying my first rigid kayak (I currently own two inflatables: Itiwit 1/2 and Gumotex Swing 1) for use in the sea, which I’d like to have as a long term investment.
About me and what I’d like to use the boat for: I’m 78kg, 178cm tall so just about average.
Five months per year the sea is warm enough to swim here (20+ C) so I’d like to be able to easily jump out from my boat and re-enter (cowboy straddle?) it.
I often do shorter recreational paddles but I’d love the boat to be able to allow me to take longer (two or three day) tours. I enjoy paddling in the winter so I’d also love the boat to be comfortable and dry (without needing a sprayskirt in decent conditions). Speed is not essential but a bonus, however, mobility is quite important so I’d love to keep the weight under 25kg. I’d also like some nice dry storage. I’ve found several boats under 4 meters which fit these criteria but I need help choosing the right one for me:
There are contradictions in what you want to do and the boats for one. Those are recreational kayaks and I think you are asking about using your future boat on the ocean?
And I may be completely wrong.
@string said:
There are contradictions in what you want to do and the boats for one. Those are recreational kayaks and I think you are asking about using your future boat on the ocean?
And I may be completely wrong.
Oh, perhaps I wasn’t quite clear. I stay within a mile from the shore 99% of the time and the sea is quite calm here (Adriatic sea). Basically what I need is a comfortable easy going touring/rec boat which can handle some more serious conditions (but isn’t focused on that). I think the 4 kayaks above should paint an accurate picture of what I need.
@Sincress said:
I think the 4 kayaks above should paint an accurate picture of what I need.
If you already “know” what you “need”, you aren’t going to like what you get told here. I suggest that you open your mind and thicken your skin to what you are about to receive from myself and others…
I haven’t looked at your short list carefully, but most of them you shouldn’t take farther from shore than you can safely swim (with a PFD on). Barring the addition of auxiliary flotation, deep water rescue/re-entry will be next to impossible with the first and second one you list. Possibly the third one as well - as I can’t tell if that’s just a small compartment or a sealed bulkhead in the front.
You can immediately eliminate anything that doesn’t have two sealed compartments. I see that at least one of the above boats does indeed have two independent sealed flotation chambers so if this is the extent of boats available to you then it certainly narrows the field.
I enjoy paddling in the winter so I’d also love the boat to be comfortable and dry (without needing a sprayskirt in decent conditions).
I have no idea what “winter” means there. Where I’m from it means that you’re taking a lot more precautions than you indicate.
Someone with a lot more knowledge about paddling than I will ever have will give you better advice than I can.
I took my first ,and only, sea kayak into the ocean on a very calm day for the first time. I punched through some small surf
and was doing great beyond the surf . Then I heard SSSS and a large breaker was on me. Luckily, I had practiced my wet exit and got out with the boat upside down. Unluckily, I ruptured a disc and needed help getting back to shore.
Anyway, learn as much as you can and know what to do if the unexpected happens.
Glad to have you here.
If you want to be able to easily get in and out, your best bet is a sit-on-top–that’s one of the things they’re made for. And keeping you dry is contradictory to ease of entry. For that matter, anyone paddling anything anywhere should expect to get wet, even staying in the boat. Think about wetsuits or drysuits for the winter.
If you want it to weigh at or less than 25kg, you should probably be looking at a thermoformed boat, as opposed to a rotomolded one. A twelve-footer will allow you to stay within your weight preference; some 14-footers get close.
You say speed is not essential, but you want to do two- or three-day tours … again, those two things are contradictory, and I can say that in reasonable confidence despite never having been on a multi-day paddle tour myself.
I know how it feels to want everything, but you can’t have it. Decide on your most important criteria and work from there.
Thanks for your helpful advice. I’d like to point out a few points regarding safety: the first two boats have only a stern bulkhead and the two bigger ones have two bulkheads.
So, what separates a recreational from a touring kayak? Bulkheads? Hull shape? Length? Aren’t all boats with two bulkheads “unsinkable”?
As for climbing back in, I believe that a sit on top isn’t the proper answer - I have tested both the FeelFree Aventura 125 and 110 and have been able to easily climb back in over the rear deck. The following video shows the same can be done with the DAG Mezzo: https://youtu.be/MJ_AyxQoQdY?t=140
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!
Also, the DAG Verso seems to have a U-shaped hull opposed to the other boats’ V shaped hulls - would that make it much more difficult to re-enter using this method?
Sincress -
Yes a touring kayak that can be re-entered from the water has to have two bulkheads. Such boat is unsinkable if no hatches leak or pop off or there is a bulkhead failure. FWIW even with fiberglass kayaks I typically have at least one section with a float bag in it. The other often has a dry bag of spare clothes that is a combination one float/dry bag. The other thing it needs is static line around the hull so you have some to grab to get up - pulling on bungie cord for that is not a plan.A
And fittings for the static line that are secure. I have been in sessions where fittings for the static line pulled out when practicing self-rescues. When that happens you have useless line and hole(s) in the boat.
After the above it comes down to things like deck height, how the hull design handles waves, hull speed for those looking at long treks and preference in tracking device (rudder or skeg).
I probably could not reliably get back into anything you have pictured if I was tired. Deck is just too high and boat is too short. And my personal criteria is that a rescue has to work when I am tired, since that is also the most likely moment that I will capsize to start with. If you can manage it for your purposes, and plan to stay just offshore rather than travel distances in a fairly protected area these boats may work for you.
My one concern is whether the area you plan to paddle can have weather changes that could leave you in waves beyond these boats’ capacities in less than the time it would take you to get to shore. If it is likely to take you say 25 minutes in wind or waves to make it back to shore, and a storm producing same can be on you in less than that time, paddling anything short and less capable without a skirt is not a prudent idea.
Thanks Celia for the clarification. Keeping drybags and float bags is a good safety precaution indeed. The four kayaks above all do have rigid perimiter lines (although I cannot determine how durable the mounts are) so that’s a good thing.
You are right about getting back into the boat tired, I should practise getting back 20 or more times in a short period to see whether it would still be possible then - from my several attempts when I rented the Feelfree Aventura, I felt it was very easy to pull the boat under me and slide myself into the cockpit. Would love to try in bigger waves, wind and when tired.
As for the climate here, it’s mostly predictable and rather moderate, so weather rarely takes an unpredicted turn for the worse, and if it does, waves and wind wouldn’t be the biggest problem (lightning and hail may be a bigger concern).
As for boat length, how much difference could there be in speed and handling of a 3.5m vs a 4m boat?
Sincress -
Note that waves would be an immediate issue if you don’t have a skirt. Would come in thru those larger cockpits and render the boat unstable and probably not very movable. Even if not officially sunk (yet).
Anything longer is better. Personally I think anything under 4 meters is simply too short to have much tracking integrity, if you get wind or waves or much of anything. Transitional kayaks that manufacturers say are for touring pretty much all start at about 4 meters. There is a reason.
You make a valid point, a spray skirt would be a must have in those conditions.
I have no experience with sit-in plastic kayaks but I’ve had no issues with waves and my inflatable boats. I’ve also found them to track well despite being only 3.1 and 3.4m long (am I insane even saying this?).
One other point to take into account is that I paddle alone 90% of the time so I need something I can handle out of the water alone, and in my region only rotomolded HDPE kayaks are available (apart from some recreational Pelicans).
As for climbing back in, I believe that a sit on top isn’t the proper answer - I have tested both the FeelFree Aventura 125 and 110 and have been able to easily climb back in over the rear deck. The following video shows the same can be done with the DAG Mezzo: https://youtu.be/MJ_AyxQoQdY?t=140
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!
snip
It makes me feel bad that they showed that reentry on the calmest of flat water outside of a bathtub … helped by the fact that the guy jumped off the boat in such a way that it didn’t take on any water. They’re doing this as a selling point on the boat’s supposed safety. I don’t read French, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t see anything in that clip that looked like a warning not to try this yourself.
Can you do that maneuver in a strong wind and/or high waves, with the cockpit half-full of water?
Valid point, it may be a feature of the boat but it also may not be usable in bad conditions. However, does that make it a bad kayak? Unsafe? Could an experienced paddler roll that boat? Would stuffing floatbags in the bow make it safe?
Is it really necessary to always take the worst-case scenario when evaluating a kayak model? Even if in 97% of cases you’re on flat, calm water?
According to that logic, I’d always have to wear a 5 point racing seatbelt in my car and a helmet just in case a truck hits me dead on, even if that’s very unlikely… do you see my point? Please correct my thinking.
Sincress -
It is MOST likely that you will need to manage any safety maneuvers when conditions are bad - you are tired, a squall comes up - because those are when you are most likely to have a problem managing the boat or your own balance.
You could paddle for years and not have this moment occur. Or you could have it happen one time and, since you are out there solo, that one time could be a fatal event.
IMO, if you are paddling solo you do have to account for the worst case scenario. The worse that happens is it takes a messier set of complications to put you at risk than if you had not so prepared.
You are usually not alone and unseen by others in a car event or any number of other such situations. You are invisible to most of the world alone in a kayak on big water.
@Sincress said:
According to that logic, I’d always have to wear a 5 point racing seatbelt in my car
It was not that long ago that seat belts in vehicles didn’t even exist. When they were introduced there was a huge amount of resistance to their use. Even today there are people who refuse to wear their seat belt despite receiving expensive fines, and a large body of evidence that supports their use.
Given time, people either get smarter or get killed off. Which would you rather?
As I noted in my first reply, you’ve come here asking for advice but seem to be debating and rejecting much of it. That makes me question whether your answer to the above question would be the obvious one or not. I suppose there are a select few that make it through on dumb luck. Are you prepared to roll the dice?
@Celia said:
IMO, if you are paddling solo you do have to account for the worst case scenario. The worse that happens is it takes a messier set of complications to put you at risk than if you had not so prepared.
That’s true, but doesn’t it apply as much to any other sport or situation in life just as much? Or is kayaking considered much more dangerous?
@Sparky961 said:
As I noted in my first reply, you’ve come here asking for advice but seem to be debating and rejecting much of it. That makes me question whether your answer to the above question would be the obvious one or not. I suppose there are a select few that make it through on dumb luck. Are you prepared to roll the dice?
I am not rejecting the advice, it’s clear to me that safety is a big concern here, I’m just curious what the mindset behind these “set in stone” rules is. One other thing that is confusing to me as a novice paddler is how experienced kayakers seem to be rejecting anything other than true sea kayaks as unsafe.
Celia said the boats above are “transitional” kayaks - but what if that’s exactly what I need? Something simple to jump in an paddle around near the coast for two, three hours or for the entire day. What if I don’t need/want a 5 meter long fiberglass sea kayak with three bulkheads, a drysuit, VHF radios, paddle floats and other equipment?
Does picking a one-bulkhead kayak or a rec boat make me reckless? Please elaborate.
I agree with Sparky, you are bending over backwards to make this unnecessarily complicated.
Once a kayak with just one bulkhead fills up with water you can’t use it to paddle back to shore. Hence the common suggestion of adding a float bag, usually up front.
If you can find something other than a more robust kayak that has reliably secured flotation front and back go for it. As far as I know no one makes a recreational kayak with full touring features. These are different boats.
If you are OK with having to abandon your kayak and swim the entire distance back to shore one bulkhead can work. If you are going to be beyond practical swimming distance - which seems to be what you were verging into somewhere above - only having flotation in one end of the boat is a lousy idea.
There is ample information under the “Learn” section of this site. You can read that. Much of this has already been explained. I am not going to spend more time pressing a point of safety that you refuse to accept.
I agree with you - floatbags are a very good precaution. I didn’t know about the learn section, I’m new here - I will check it out. Thanks for the advice once again, for now it seems I will stick to my inflatable boats as they do the trick just fine for me.
Related to this, I’m also curious about your opinion on inflatable touring kayaks such as the Gumotex Framura and Advanced Elements Expedition. Do you think they’re viable options or clunky and unsafe?