But they forgot…
the acid. (do I date myself?)
Enjoyed the laugh. Thanks.
What I’d try
I don’t know what tangent everyone else is on in this thread, but there have been a ton of good recommendations if you ignore the rest of the hype.
Personally, I’d carry less and use your Romany, but you’re not me. Still, the boat I use for touring actually carries a ton more than I need, so I know the luxury of extra room. (If you want to build a kayak, I have a good plan for a touring boat…)
The Explorer is the boat to try if you want to keep that Romany feel. I know someone who loves his Nordkapp for trips and he also paddles a Romany. What about a Tempest 170 or Chatham 18? They also might be good boats to look at.
You’re right…
…there’s ton of good stuff in that article. I shouldn’t give the wrong impression. For instance, I think I’ll start using the tip he mentions for taking the air out of freeze dried food packets that will be used in the following few days. This tip would save even more space at higher altitudes (as the packets expand in the lower atmospheric pressure) for mountaineers and for hunters a few thousand feet above the sea.
or a Delta kayaks 18.5
http://www.deltakayaks.com/products.shtml
now them’s some touring kayaks. made for kayak tripping.
The right tool
A boat is a tool. You could frame a house using a tack hammer, though a framing hammer might make it easier. You can do an amazing number of things with a Swiss Army knife, though it may not be the best or easiest tool for every task.
Depth of skill and experience matters. I know a contractor who uses a Sawzall for just about all of his cutting. Some of what he accomplishes with that tool I can only accomplish with more specialized ones (It requires my using at least a circular saw and a jig saw to do a decent job on much for which he uses his Sawzall). The deeper ones skill and experience, the less the tool matters.
I’ve done Leave No Trace camping off the coast of Maine in my Elaho DS and my Aquanaut. I found it easier in my Aquanaut. The poster who originated this thread feels he needs a bigger boat for camping. It is quite possible he knows his needs.
Still hoping to learn where you go!
Hey Scorch-
I’m still hoping to learn where you actually paddle that you need to carry in 20 days worth of water, and carry out 20 days worth of human waste. Somewhere up here on Lake Superior? I can’t imagine it, since this water works fine for drinking, and I can’t imagine anyone who hauls out their poop up here. On the COlorado River somewhere? Maine islands? Thanks for letting us know…
Did he write that?
No, he didn’t
Scorch didn’t weigh back in after the thread took off. Maybe being ridiculed for thinking he wants an expedition length boat discouraged his further input.
There are many reasons why a goodly number of experienced and skilled folk paddle Explorers, Nordkapps, Aquanauts, etc…
Simultaneously, some skilled paddlers choose not to paddle longer boats.
Unfortunately, some folk belittle those who feel or act differently than themselves.
Yeah - what happened here
– Last Updated: Feb-19-07 2:21 PM EST –
This is a one-two but the story seems apt. I'd hardly blame the guy for not looking.
I had a question a few months ago where I was also told I had the wrong boat in mind - had asked about an older displacement hull for starting some low level WW this coming season and was told pretty resoundingly that I wanted a planing hull. I pushed back a bit, saying that the boat I was thinking of (Piedra) had been a very well-respected workhorse in a lot of WW schools, and this was not intended to be about play-boating, so what was really wrong with this. (in fact the one under our porch started its life at the place in Ottawa.)
What came back were some really good posts about how the two types of hulls behaved in those conditions and the advantages and disdvantages of each of them in the stuff. It was about the boats and learning, not my background etc. As a result I and my husband did rethink what we were doing, so right now there is both a Pirouette and an Innazone under the porch for him and I am on the hunt for a used planing hulll boat along the lines of the older Innazone myself.
What happened here, however, is that a guy who is presumably an adult just said he wanted a boat with more storage and similar handling and shortly after got hit with replies assuming he had ridiculous equipment (who still even has one of those ancient sleeping bags?), would make people wait at the launch and lacked understanding of what constituted the proper camping experience. Then a couple of us who indicated the slightest sympathy with what this grown-up wanted (heaven forbid!) got into the line of fire as well.
There are some posts up there about considerations in a bigger boat, the question he asked, but there are probably as many on this other stuff. I didn't like some of the the discourse but once having said why it's no big deal. This silliness isn't going to change my paddling experience, especially with the attitude. But I can't imagine that Scorch is likely to ask a question here for a while.
All the wailing and gnashing of teeth…
aside, what is the percentage of 5-7 day trips vs 1 0r 2 day trips the paddler in question will take? Will he go only on 5-7 day trips (doubt it); the majority of paddling is 5-7 day trips (doubt it); or, one or two a year and the rest being day trips (likely)? If the latter, keeping the Romany makes perfect sense as you can get it to work out for a 5-7 day trip, especially on freshwater friendly places. The majority of paddling trips, 1 or 2 days, you still have a fun boat. Why sell a boat you love just to replace it with something that is not really as fun, to haul more crap around, for a once a year activity?
Oh, by the way, my Romany holds more than my Khats, but it never stops me from taking the Khats for 2 weeks at a time when it involves travelling. If supplimenting the boat with another was in question I would suggest a transportable boat as an option. Maybe the Kool Aid Master back at the Kayak Kamp doesn’t like them but I like more options than one Master’s opinion.
Dogmaticus
Right on.
I think an assumption was made early in the thread that he was going to sell his Romany. He never stated that, his question was: what kayaks have the Romany feel but carry a bigger load?
And despite the fact that I’m a lightweight paddler and camper and my typical load for a week would fit in one compartment of a Romany, telling him to buy a new sleeping bag and convert to my style of wilderness tripping doesn’t answer his question. This thread ventured far into the land of sidetrack and it demonstrated the typical hostile feel of this place.
It’s like when I decided to start posting here, because of the vast opinions of the paddlers here that I respect, and I asked about the feel of a Nord LV compared to some boats that I have some time in, and then got told nothing about how it felt to paddle by 2/3rds of the posts. Mostly, I was chastised by salty for not thinking for myself or something like that – I think he must have made an assumption about me that I don’t try before I buy or something like that. Definitely not useful for me. I had to waste a bunch of my time, trying to steer the thread back on track. When I got actual answers, they were very helpful to me. I’d almost describe my experience in that thread as bordering on hostile. This thread has that feel.
My point: Let’s answer questions and make additional suggestions, but try to keep it useful for the original poster.
An example here would have been to ask Terry if he thought about reducing his gear load by using lightweight and compressible gear, and then waiting for him to answer.
Read the header on the first post
Possibly what made people think the original poster was looking to trade his Romany for something else was that the header on his post asked for help choosing a Romany REPLACEMENT. He also said that he loves his Romany. A couple of you seem to be convinced that you’re giving good advice and Salty’s being a nasty old meany, but you’re gliding right by the fact that not everyone is in a position to keep multiple boats. Take the ego stuff out and it’s hard to see the harm in suggesting that the original poster should reconsider how much room he needs before replacing a boat he loves.
And regarding length, speed, efficiency, etc., I suspect that it comes down to Salty having a pretty different idea of what rough water looks like than most here. A longer hull may be easier to keep pointed where you want it as you move from flat calm into more active water, but eventually longer means the bow’s sticking out in the wind while the stern is buried in the trough, or the stern’s trying to rotate right on a dominant crest while the bow’s getting pushed left by cross-chop, etc. Your experience may be more representative of most people here, but I don’t think Salty’s just making stuff up when he talks about hull performance.
(Responding partly to the post immediately above and partly to Celia’s a little farther up.)
Uh, that happened.
“My point: Let’s answer questions and make additional suggestions, but try to keep it useful for the original poster.
An example here would have been to ask Terry if he thought about reducing his gear load by using lightweight and compressible gear, and then waiting for him to answer.”
Salty suggested evaluating gear choices, so did I. Salty even suggested early on if he didn’t wish to do so, the Millenium might be ok. I made a few sleeping bag jokes and illustrated that within the parameters of moderate length trips, the Romany was doable. Ok, ok, so I screwed up the screen for awhile, but I fixed it, doesn’t that count for something? I agree Scorch didn’t specifically say he would sell the Romany, its impression is easily formable. Additionally, other modes of “gear hauler” kayaks were suggested gaining an additionaly perspective in kayaking and a much bigger range of travel.
When Nordkapps were suggested my experience with it said it offered not a lot more room as its ends are finer. The LV version looked to my eye to be very similar in hatch volume when I tested it once (very sweet boat, too). I think they are great boats, but in a typical day’s paddle I don’t feel any differently.
I’ve seen people do things in longer “expedition” boats that made my eyes gleam in admiration, to which I would also suggest they can play well, too. However, there is alot to be said for a more nimble, athletic boat on a day trip or longer that keeps its appeal very high, at a cost of “researching” different gear choices and packing strategies. I don’t see the negativity you do. I do see defensiveness over the One Who Inspire’s choice and a dogged dermination to keep it alive for all the coming ages, however, boats similar in volume have been used for 2 and 3 week trips to meet the needs of the users very successfully. It may not always be the case as there are not many rules from my perspective that cannot be seen differently. Further, if someone is going to put themselves on the hook for 2-3 grand for a “trippier” version of what they have, wouldn’t you ask them to consider different variables as well? It’s a lot of money to explore niches. Now, a little joke, so I’ll load in a smiley here so all understands I’m just kidding around:
; )
The sensitivity around here often seems like a naked swede at high noon in the Sahara. Great, now I’ve got the Swedish faction after me, too.
Have fun.
Dogmaticus
I guess I read that differently
– Last Updated: Feb-20-07 12:34 AM EST –
I read it as a replacement for his Romany on those longer trips and not as a complete replacement, so, I guess, I made a different assumption. So, Terry, are you selling your Romany?
You're echoing my point when you write, "it's hard to see the harm in suggesting that the original poster should reconsider how much room he needs before replacing a boat he loves." And I totally agree with that, but we never heard from Terry and then, well it went on.
I'm sure that salty, whoever he is, has the experience in rough water. Of course, the Explorer is no slouch in rough water either.
Edit: I hope I'm giving good advice, but it's just that, my advice. And my experience is pretty well open on my webpage, so any advice I give can be evaluated by those that want to form their opinions about me. Do I think salty is mean and nasty? No, not really.
I don’t
I don’t see a problem suggesting alternative gear packing strategies at all. I evangelize about using lightweight gear, so let’s see what Terry thinks about it.
And, Dogmaticus, humor and sarcasm doesn’t translate, as you probably know, very well across the internet for some of us, so some of your jokes go right over my head. I’m learning to see them from you and recognize them online from you, but how about someone who hasn’t engaged you suppose to know that it’s humor. In real life, I have a feeling, people would know right off the bat.
sensitivity
i believe the sensitivity often seen in this forum stems from an obsessive fanatacism of the sport. consider the time spent composing many of these copiously detailed messages.
what is also interesting (and funny) is how often people flame others for showing deep interest in a specific aspect of the sport/boat/gear, if that interest is shown on a perceived newcomers thread, they sometimes get the horns:
‘your an elitist pro! don’t scare the newbies!’
most people i’ve read on pnet, either ARE or represent the top 10 percent of all paddlers. paddling dominates their free time. they are so passionate, they spend hours each evening, talking about it on the internet, and would be seen by almost anyone else, as total experts.
I don’t doubt Salty’s experience
– Last Updated: Feb-20-07 1:16 PM EST –
Or Dog's is much greater than mine, or that I am a pretty inefficient packer. I readily admit to all of these. And maybe I am willing to reform, and maybe not. Let's call it a mystery and leave it there.
I had a slightly longer response here for a few minutes and I already can't stand it.
Precis for Scorch
I think all agree:
You CAN do everything with your Romany.
You may WISH to have the variety of experience of another boat for some activities.
IF you are set on a bigger boat than your Romany, there are a lot of good choices.
IF you want a longer boat that feels closest to your Romany, an Explorer is the one.
IF you can’t or don’t want more than one boat, it is worth reconsidering your camping gear and keeping the Romany.
Most importantly, sleeping bags with images of animals are so yesterday!
The rest is commentary…
[BTW I am grateful for Salty and have learned much over the years from his posts]
I just looked at your website…
nice pix, Bryan. I’m so glad this site doesn’t have pix to add to the posts, yall would be laughing at mine. you are a pro.
Dogmaticus
Thanks
Thanks for the compliment.