“Heavy wind? No way!”
Salty, you are way more experienced than I.
It may be true that all boats behave exactly the same when an advanced paddler such as you are in them.
However, MY experience in two of my boats is that my Romany gets blown around a hell of a lot more than my Aquanaut when I'm paddling in high winds and dimensional seas.
Different boats do perform differently for me.
Clearly your experience is otherwise.
What, more common sense and…
wisdom? I have about an hour’s worth of hull design education and you are bang on: it has saved me about a thousand hours of fun in the last year or two paddling a cool boat that allowed me to get there on time but run rocks, rapids and other fine places. I just don’t worry about this stuff beyond the basics.
Now get this, my buddy paddles a Feathercraft K1 and I the much “faster” Khatsalano. He can kick my ass 6 ways to Sunday, any day of the week. Put Barton in a Pungo 697.382 and it would be 12 ways to Sunday. My friend has less than an hour’s worth of hull design education and he would have to have emphysema and a bad crack hangover to lose to me. (Good motor!)And Barton, he can write a book and still kick everybody’s butt. But I doubt he really wants to bore us with the details.
The world is a really cool place to paddle, don’t limit yourself to where you can only drive, chewing up gas and hard earned vacation hours. If I was as smart as I thought I was, I would have bought a transportable kayak first, the “away jersey”, then quibbled over drag figures with the rabble I hang out with to arrive at a perfect “home jersey”, later. But that’s just me, what do I know.
Dogmaticus
That was the best pack your kayak…
article I have ever read. As jaded and old sounding as I am, I appreciated that article alot. Usually when I see articles like that my eyes frost over and I reach for the cheapest bottle of rot gut I can find, but ya you’re right, he knows something.
Dogmaticus
Nah, not going there
It’s a word that fits my experience, if it doesn’t fit others’ that’s fine for them too.
I’m no expert…
…and it is not my intent to hijack this thread (sorry), but I was wonderning about a couple of things Brian mentioned in that article also mentioned in the above posts. Specifically, I’m talking about the ‘storage vest over PFD’ idea and the use of ‘cockpit space’.
Here’s a short article from secondwindsports.net:
Safety Concerns
I participated in the Sea Kayak Georgia symposium this year and while assisting with a BCU 4* assessment I noticed that one of the students was wearing a mesh muti pocket overvest that was worn over his PFD. He had every pocket filled with items presumably to have easy access to without the need to open a hatch cover. The overall weight was substantial and this student seemed to have noticeably more difficulty in both controlling and rentering his boat. It dawned on me that not only did the added weight compromise his buoyancy, but also contributed to his balance. I have since considered the possibility of the mesh catching on something on the deck and concluded that while the idea of the vest seems good at the onset, I am not sure that I would recommend it to people paddling in challenging conditions.
Chris Mitchell
Brian clearly tells readers to, “Take the time to practice rescues and rolls with your loaded PFD to be sure it won’t impair your ability to reenter you kayak or roll in rough conditions.” Folks that go this route and use the vest had better do exactly what Brian said or they may end up using that survival gear sooner than expected. Folks should carefully examine the pros and cons to such a vest.
Regarding using cockpit space, again, I wonder how many people will actully do what Brian says and go to the trouble of installing systems that ensure these cockpit stored items will not move in rough conditions/rolling/rescues. As we all know, anything in that cockpit that can move and cause trouble will do so at the worst possible moment. Brian includes the requisite disclaimer of telling folks to ensure these items are secure, of course, in the article.
Something that addresses this issue to a degree and is working well for me so far:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2032725320068902019EphPJB
Not as accessible as a vest, however.
Brian is talking about expedition packing techniques and these ideas make sense. It just seems to me that there’s alot of ‘potential safey cons’ to weigh against the ‘extra storage pros’.
That suprises me
but whatever works for you. The stuff I say is very controversial…I know that. To make an attempt at understanding it would involve a conscious decision to question and test what you have been told. Perhaps the Romany is too loose for you. I for one would never choose an A boat over it for high wind, but that’s just me… Have fun, and paddle often…in whatever.
That vest is called “Vest o’ Death”…
by some around here, as it catches alot more than extra gear. I have a vest with enough pockets to keep the bits I need to fix people, boats and stuff, otherwise it goes in the day hatch. You don’t have to write an article in Sea Kayaker and be right about everything, do ya? Still, I liked his article and agree heartily that everything in the cockpit needs to be nailed down or left behind.
Dogmaticus
A prophet is never respected…
in his own home town.
Dogmaticus
"mis-conceptions about efficiency"
Hmm… only misconception I see is the common assumption everyone wants to cruise at 3-4 knots and stop a lot!
For those of us who like to go a bit above that range as an average speed, and are not supermen like Barton, there are designs that are more efficient for our purpose (and that can be selected without ever consulting a drag table). But this is just more "different horse stuff - not debating your comments or the worthiness of the venerable Romany for the sort of uses being discussed.
Salty, your posts are far from controversial - as there really isn’t much to debate at 3-4 knots. L Seriously, I don’t see how you can say anything you’ve said on these boards regarding design issues/efficiency/right tool for the job is "controversial. You are likely far more experienced/knowledgeable than most here (certainly more than I) - and generally I find your comments to be spot on in pretty much all areas. They do leave room for people who haven’t done the basic design reading to misinterpret them though, but impossible not to have that happen…
Fast is fun
in a legit fast boat! Epic 18, Rapier, Glider, surf ski…17-18 ft. 55 lb. pointy ended boats that are 21+ " wide aint fast…but you know that. Aint fun either for me.
I say if yer gonna be in a slow boat, make it a fun slow boat.
Death vest and loose gear.
I would think that on an expedition with enough gear to make an extra gear vest necessary, a properly laden boat (heavy stuff, like water, at the bottom of the boat, everything secured etc.) would have such a low center of gravity as to be almost self-righting, which would cancel out out the extra weight of stuff on ones torso with a gear vest.. But yes, the stuff in the vest should be considered re: weight. And ,more stuff on ones person shouldn't mean loose stuff on ones person ; one would want it just as stowed and secured as the stuff one keeps on the pfd.
And yes, one should test drive an expedition outfitted boat and gear before heading off on that extended trip, make sure that what one does regularly (wet exits, rolls, rescus etc) can still be done with these new outfittings.
I haven't done a 3 weeek trip in a kayak, but my sense is that, with forethought and some practice , all of Mr. Day's tips can be put to use safely.
Fool’s errand
>Hmm… only misconception I see is the common >assumption everyone wants to cruise at 3-4 knots >and stop a lot!
Bingo!
I’m sure it is fun being a dogmatic contrarian, a hard man, and an obsessive reader of SK hydrostatic data. Obviously creates an entertaining mix on PNet.
As at best an average weekend warrior, I submit the following.
If the issue is does the boat make much difference when paddling in a group that will stay together, wander about, and average around 3Kts for the day, then you get one answer. If you want to average 4Kts for 15/20NM days, then you get another. If you are a minimalist you get one answer. If you like your comfort whatever that means, then maybe you get another.
While it is fruitless, in terms of conversion, to debate the legitimacy of another’s perceptions; I must say if I had to make a 8NM crossing as fast as possible at the end of a long day or even at the beginning of a day, then I would much prefer to be in my Force 4 than my Anas Acuta. Above 4Kts, just no comparison for me and I have no doubt the stats would show the differences. Since speed can be safety on a longish trip where weather and stuff can happen, I likely would go with the Force if I was more interested in getting from point A to B than anything else. If I am going to wander about on a group paddle, then I would pick the AA.
The stuff I say is very controversial.
The only part that I find controversial is the regular assertion that a poster doesn't know what she/he is saying and has been brainwashed.
All three of my sea kayaks were purchased after extensive paddling. Everything I know about the statistics of two of them (Elaho DS, Valley Aquanaut) I learned after deciding on the boat. Regarding my third sea kayak, my Romany, I've never seen statistics. In any case, I only find the statistics useful if they inform my experience.
I have read a lot of what is available on the web from Winters, Barton, etc... on hull design.
I paddle and play in almost every different boat I can access. This past summer that included a Merlin LT and a Looksha IV, in addition to some 'sexier' boats. I still have fun trying a wide range of boats. (Though these days I'm mostly enjoying playing with different ww boats)
Most often when posting, I am doing so from my experience.
Many on this board have longer experience, deeper skills, and more knowledge than me. That is what makes the board most worthwhile for me.
Training does not necessarily equal brainwashing.
Well, yes and no
In my experience... A well-laden boat will resist getting kicked around in waves more than unladen, and settles down very nicely going thru/over them as it likes. But once past the point of capsize it'll also want to go over (Ok, maybe not faster) but it feels harder to stop ... to me. It's a little slower first part of the roll because it takes a little more oomph to get it started, and if it starts dropping past its balance point on the side it might takes a little more thigh (or brace) to keep it from going further.
As to those gear vests for over the PFD - we have encountered people who have used them and found them to be no issue at all as well as those who see real issues. It seems to be something that you have to try for yourself.
Boats aren’t, prsonalization is
Re what is contrversial... I know of no other posters who regularly target a single person by name in their post. And Salty does that a good bit, at least with me. As above, there are also a lot of characterizations of my and others' attitudes about things that are played out on the board, so to speak on the big screen, rather than having a conversation offline to find out if what was attributed to someone matches their actual paddling history and experience.
Salty's attitudes about boats are not controversial, I agree. They are in the realm of normal discourse. But the tendency to personalize his response and characterize attitudes and skill levels of people he's never met or paddled with based on as little as a single word (efficiency was the last one) in a post - that is controversial. (And also his issue.)
Jeez
I thought I was being pretty nice… I think some of you want a site where you can state unsupported, blantantly innaccurate perceptions as fact without being challenged. “A loaded boat goes over faster once it decides to go”… My goodness me… joke is on me for trying to offer you more information to examine for yourself. I apologize to myself for being stupid and wasting time on this board.
Alright u2…
…kiss and make up or I’m telling Mom. 
I suppose…
… but I get into more trouble for the opposite reason. That is, I tend to post general comments (as if all in the discussion were in the room - and speaking to all) and go off on tangents - and some assume it’s all about them!
Can’t win.
I’ll give Salty points for making it clear who/what he’s replying to.
Once said enough