New P&H Delphin Surf Spec

Rock-gardening and white water junkies might be pleased to learn that P&H is releasing a new version of the plastic Delphin - now in a single layer hull, moving away from the 3 layer.



http://www.phseakayaks.com/news.php?news=20



Interesting to see that up until now marketing seems to have been that 3-layer is superior to single layer, and thus should command a premium price. Now the spin on the surf spec is that the new single layer is superior for these applications. And is shaping-up to be even more expensive ($2-300) than the 3-layer construction. The only other differences besides 1 vs. 3 layer appear to be a center foam pillar, full foot plate, and the hull stiffener beam on the bottom.



I say, great idea, though I think this new surf spec version should not be more expensive than the 3 layer, considering that the hull should be cheaper to make and the added components are not really that expensive (and I would hope would be available as options on the 3-layer too)…



No weight specs are available, but I assume they will be similar to the 3-layer weight range (which is to say, on the heavy side compared to other 15 foot offerings).



Curious if folks have sat/paddle these yet? Is the new single layer construction just as stiff or does it flex more? Also, does the center pilar and hull stiffener beam take away foot room? E.g., can one have their heels together (assuming past the beam/foam) or now they have to be several inches apart to accomodate the new insertions?

3 layer
I think they’re mainly responding to some folks getting cracks on the inner layer. I don’t think their 3 layer is anything like Valley’s which seems better from my limited view of things.



I have the original Delphin and may try to replace the current foot pegs with the bulkhead style. I don’t much like foot pegs in general, but also find their peg rails to be a bit flimsy. I’ve had the peg derail a couple times (now tying zip ties to secure it better).

I like the other stuff
…the footplate, hip and thigh grips, and removable pod. sound like they ould be applied to other models as well.

I wonder about Corelite…
If it is indeed that fragile… I recall the recent thread on this here but my searches online did not find evidence of cracking being a wide-spread problem. Given that Delphins are probably abused more than other 3-layer kayaks… Anyhow, I’m personally interested in this since I just yielded to the temptation of a local sale and am now the [should I be prowd?] owner of a 155 RM in 3-layer… I do scrape rocks a lot in my river paddling, but I usually do not subject the kayaks to high impacts so I hope the outer layer will not be too weak for this. The one season old demo I tried looked fine and probably better than my Zephyr in terms of scratches…

Too bad they haven’t fixed the skeg
I wish they’d fix the skeg problems. I asked if you could get one without the bad skeg, and got no reply.

Still going…
CoreLite has been and still will be used on Delphins and Scorpios. The Delphin Surf is being laid up in the hd single layer with a rigid pillar and seat pan stiffener like in Pyrahna creek boats. If you’re going to try to move boulders with your boat then this composition makes sense.



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

Marshall thanks for the clarification

– Last Updated: Nov-01-11 8:11 AM EST –

I was just trying to understand what P&H meant by:

"single layer plastic construction - Manufactured to white water specification"

I could not recollect any play boat manufacturer stating that the plastic in their boats are built to ww specs.
It would be implied in the design.

I will hazard a guess that a reinforced single-ply poly construction will have more 'give' for repeated rock bashings, but that a tri-laminate (Core-lite) is stiffer and better suited for 'touring'?

If this is correct my only quip would be, why call this kayak the Delphin Surf Spec and not the Delphin 'Rock Gardening Spec'?

Consruction
Whitewater creek boats can be made with a double thickness hull for additional strength plus minicell foam pillars, structural bulkheads, stiffener keelsons etc. for strength and integrity under pinning and submersion conditions that can be encountered on river features and or drops (which yes would be feature but involves a bit more freefall than playing a hole).



For a greater appreciation TVC, you wanna play hooky on Thurs.? for ww, temps are supposed to almost be 60?



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

www.the-river-connection.com

WW specs
I think as the parent company, Pyranha, is a ww manufacturer there is more awareness of what is needed for a boat to survive in conditions that risk pinning etc… This is a good thing. I recall seeing photos of an Anas Acuta snapped in half surfing. I also know a paddler that upon getting an Avocet ran a class II/III river as his first outing. Sea kayak design can benefit greatly from ww kayak design.

maybe too rigid
rather than fragile… my Capella RM is very stiff and shrugs off the occasional scrape and bump, but maybe the more flexy single-layer poly makes more sense for bashing sharp rocks. if you manage to punch it thru then you can plastic-weld it; repairing the corelite might not be as easy.



as far as the pillar, my guess is it keeps your feet separated.

Rock bashing
Is probably just as apt of a description of Creek Boating in the ww world as anything and that’s what type of forgiveness the Surf is being built to. The pillar is not the traditional foam bisecting wall but rather a rigid pillar from the deck to the keelson/seat plate so feet will have room on the bulkhead/foot plate. The later again is from the creeping world but can also be seen in the Pyrahna Fusion.



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

Don’t want anything that has to do with
no “creeping world” -:wink: though I don’t do any creeking either …



Seriously though, I could not get a picture from your description, Marshall. I can see on the surf spec photos the “molded-in” rigid stiffener running from the seat towards the front of the cockpit. I would expect that at the front end of it there is a stiff foam block supporting the deck (so the deck and hull bottom won’t pinch your legs together should the boat collapse/bends in two). That’s what I got in my WW boat and in there, it is b/w my lower legs, but since the foam pillar and rigid rail do not go all the way forward, my feet actually have no obstructions. I would hope something like that is how the Delphin is done too…

Pillar support
Nope, not foam. Think pillar, literally, of plastic. It bots to the deck between the front pin bar and the coaming.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNZ9Xk95f7w



A lot of panning but there’s a brief view forward in the cockpit showing the pillar.



My descriptions aren’t cutting it so perhaps this’ll be worth a lot of typing.



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

A picture is worth a 1K words
Thanks for the vid. link.



From P&H site though: “Bonded in hull stiffener with foam safety pillar …”



http://www.phseakayaks.com/news.php?news=20



That’s where I got the “foam” term.



I actually would prefer tough foam as it will both decrease volume of the cockpit (soe less water), plus I think that foam is more resilient to pressure than plastic, which may bend and once it bends it will lose most of its strength…

Squishage
I’ll leave it to the vertical drop nautical engineers at Pyrahna to be the judge of “to foam or not to foam”. They’ve been at it for a tad bit of time.



For the purposes that the Surf will be put to I’m sure it will perform with aplomb (my “use this word in context” for the day)



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com


Creek Boat features
Creek boats have a plastic pillar instead of foam, ( or sometimes in addition to) to prevent leg entrapment during a pin in the river. I really think this feature was added as a result of foam pillars collapsing and preventing folks from getting out of their boats. You will see them called ‘step out pillars’. I’d trust a creekboat pillar a whole lot more than the foam pillar in my older WW boat.



People sometimes put drybags in front of the bulkheads on overnight trips in creekboats - so airbags could easily go there to displace water in between the footplate bulkhead and the regular bulkhead. This would only apply for shorter in height folks, though.

Thanks for the explanation!
n/m

I’d like one…
Hope ratchets are salt water friendly. Most have proven lousy for sea applications. Like the concept of this boat!

On my wish list as well…