Word comes via the Nuremburg Paddle Expo.
(odd place for a big Paddle Expo, yes? it’s not particularly near any big water)
Apparently, Tiderace has at least 3 new boats coming:
Personally I think this is pretty cool.
The Pace coming in multiple sizes means they’re ‘all in’ on the fast-expedition boat concept (even Rockpool’s Taran doesn’t come in multiple sizes yet, though there are rumors a ‘shorty Taran’ is coming).
And Tiderace getting into plastic boats/a lower price point is pretty nice, considering that some other ‘premium Brit brands’ don’t do that/barely do that (NDK, Rockpool).
Where are they making these?
Who is building them?
That will determine pricing … and we know these folks like healthy margin. Their glass boats are priced close to UK, Europe, and North American made boats, so we know they are taking a bigger margin compared to the these other companies.
But is there…
…really that much wiggle room in the price for rotomold boats?
Even premium ones from the top British makes generally cost $1500-2000. Don’t think Tiderace can really price the Vortex much above that, and I don’t see why they’d price below that either.
Far as their other new boats go (the 2 new Paces, which I assume would be 'glass), I’d think they’d be made by Cobra in Thailand, like their other composite boats.
– Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:28 AM EST –
...ppl do not care too much about Tiderace's boats. Noted. ;]
But they do care about arguing about globalization? Hmm. =\
I saw these on the facebook. They look cool. Which is half the battle.
– Last Updated: Oct-02-12 4:04 AM EST –
The 2013 Tiderace Dealer's Workbook:
The new models (more specifically) are:
Pace Evoke- The Pace 18 in 15'9" form, and with a 4-hatch layout instead of the 18's 3 hatches.
Pace 17 Tour- Basically a 17', 4-hatch version of the Pace 18.
(both of the shorter Paces have slightly wider beams and more rocker than the 18... so perhaps a bit more all-around/'sea-kayak-y' than the 18, though still with the long-waterline design)
Xtra 'LV' - A smaller version of the Xtra playboat... but it now becomes the regular Xtra (no LV in the name, even though that's what it is). The current Xtra is retained, but is re-named the 'Xtra HV'. Yeah, that's not confusing at all.
Vortex - As mentioned previously, a rotomold version of the Xtra.
The only disappointment is that TR's uber-awesome 'graphics' paint-job remains available only on the Xtra and Xtreme... would be great to see it on offered on all their boats. IMO, it's the best-looking paint-job offered on any kayak anywhere.
That quibble aside, seems like TR is fleshing out their lineup quite nicely.
I don’t know where you get your info from, but the cost to Tiderace in building their boats means their margins are considerably lower than those of other British manufacturers.
The first step in the logic, is that Valley, PH, Rockpool and NDK all make their boats in-house, so they save on the cost of production by not having to make a third party company some profit for doing so.
The second is that the materials and processes used by Cobra are much more expensive than those used by those other manufacturers in producing the boats.
The third is that Cobra are not a cheap place to build boats. The Cobra built Tiderace boats are far, far higher specification than the ones built in Finland by Charger and it is not cheaper to build them in Thailand than it was in Finland.
The fourth is that Tiderace must include the cost of shipping boats by 20’ or 40’ container from Thailand before the boats reach either Europe or the US, whereas the others are based in Europe and have much lower shipping costs.
Frankly, I wish people who didn’t have the foggiest clueregarding what they’re talking about would stop talking as if they did.
Geez, don’t be shy, tell us what you REALLY think, No_Kayak. =D
Btw, while everyone tells me that Cobra builds with truly excellent quality and materials (and that does cost $$), wouldn’t the (much?) lower labor rates in Thailand offset that to a great extent, in terms of cost of manufacture?
OTOH, and as you mention, higher shipping costs and the need for Tiderace to pay Cobra a profit for their services would further cut into any cost advantage.
It’s possible that the whole thing is more or less a wash, and Tiderace simply thought Cobra could do it with higher quality than most anyone else in the world, and with a lot less hassle to TR than TR having to set up a world-class boat factory in-house from scratch. Perhaps that kind of stuff doesn’t interest Aled, and he’d rather focus on designing boats.
But I certainly don’t know for sure, and perhaps unlike nebeginner, I’ll 100% freely admit that I’m just speculatin’.
Well now, someone is upset …
“I don’t know where you get your info from, but the cost to Tiderace in building their boats means their margins are considerably lower than those of other British manufacturers.”
Where do you get yours from?
“The first step in the logic, is that Valley, PH, Rockpool and NDK all make their boats in-house, so they save on the cost of production by not having to make a third party company some profit for doing so.”
But their labor cost is night and day compared to Thailand. And in England, as in the US, there cost of manufacturing is considerably higher due to labor and environmental laws. Cost of materials are higher due to the same reasons. Isn’t the whole proposition for shifting production to an extreme low cost market like Thailand is that it is more profitable?
“materials and processes used by Cobra are much more expensive than those used by those other manufacturers in producing the boats.”
How so? Where do the materials come from? Would they not be cheaper in a county with lower import fees and less restrictions? And cheaper still for materials that could be sourced locally, based on the lower production costs?
Or are you saying the materials themselves are more better? If so, how do you know that?
Or is the process is is more expensive in Thailand? How so? Isn’t labor dirt cheap? And lower government rules and regulations on manufacturing, i.e safety, use and disposal of chemicals, etc, cheaper in Thailand? Isn’t that why Cobra is there and not in the US, Canada, England, or France, in the first place?
"The third is that Cobra are not a cheap place to build boats. The Cobra built Tiderace boats are far, far higher specification than the ones built in Finland by Charger and it is not cheaper to build them in Thailand than it was in Finland. "
Higher specifications? “far far” higher? How so? Or is it again the cost of labor and manufacturing … this time in Finland … and the “far far higher” specifications imposed on Finish manufacturers by way of environmental and labor laws?
“cost of shipping boats by 20’ or 40’ container from Thailand before the boats reach either Europe or the US, whereas the others are based in Europe and have much lower shipping costs.”
But again, the proposition of Asian manufacturing factors that in, right?
“Frankly, I wish people who didn’t have the foggiest clueregarding what they’re talking about would stop talking as if they did.”
Hey, I’m just questioning, not trying to state facts. You seem to be doing that. How so? Please explain your knowledge of these things. That perhaps may explain why this topic has ruffled your feathers so much. You seem very defensive about Tiderace quality … trying to paint Cobra as some shining light for superior glass manufacturing.
They may be, but one simple fact I do know: no manufacturer goes to the opposite side of the globe to manufacture their product unless there is a significant profit opportunity to offset the lack of hands-on oversight of the process.
… He simply got emotional, and jumped to conclusions. Defensive. No problem.
I know nothing about boat building etc, but I do know that increasing government regulations and requirements on glass and plastics manufacturing, combined with labor costs, have driven many US builders off shore. I would think, but don’t know, that much the same has happened in England and other places.
A simple google search reveals all you need to know at a glance on those same issues in Thailand.
I do however have some knowledge of business, and can say with some confidence that no manufacturer decides shift their manufacturing off shore lightly. And the key decision is profitability. That gain has to be significant enough to off-set many factors.
I have worked for a few of the world’s largest manufacturers for over 25 years, and been involved in these very kinds of decisions. If it were a wash, manufacturing would have stayed where it was in all cases. The profit gain in all cases was significant.
“But I certainly don’t know for sure, and perhaps unlike nebeginner, I’ll 100% freely admit that I’m just speculatin’.”
My original post was brief and could be read as nothing but speculation as well.
But I’ll admit it is getting a bit annoying when someone continues to bash excellent boats based on their POV that Cobra makes superior boats, and anyone that suggests they are merely on par with other manufactures get the response like I received.
New Tiderace kayaks
Personally really excited for the new Xtra (LV for lack of a better term at this point).
I don’t have dealer pricing from NYK yet, which when it comes will answer the question.
Though it must be said the price of composite kayaks has gone up over the last few years.
Avg price in 2001 when I got into a composite boat was around $2900. The average price for a new composite kayak now is around $3500. Plastic boats in 2001 from P&H/Valley were around $1200, and are now around $1800-$1900.
Tiderace is not a discount kayak manufacturer, and nor is it the most expensive kayak out there, but they have tended to make some awesome hulls out of top flight materials.
If you are looking for a demo in the Midwest drop me a line.
I worked for Tiderace
The reason I know what I do is because I worked for Tiderace when the decision to move was made and was party to all the gory details.
The move to Thailand was motivated entirely by quality and at the expense of terms and pricing that the dealer network could easily stomach.
It would have been far easier from a short-term business perspective to continue allowing Charger Composites to do a mediocre job building Tiderace boats, but mediocre isn’t what the company was or is about.
We took a hard decision to move at a time when it would cost us a year’s business development, because there was a need to move away from Charger and at the same time, the facility that offered us the best quality we had ever seen was Cobra in Thailand. This is Cobra who work to International ISO Standards and work with brands such as Ferrari and Audi.
Frankly, to talk about them as if they are some environment-killing bucket shop is ignorant behaviour.
We went from a European factory where product was at time less than 50% firsts, to one in Thailand where the rate is more than 90%. That is not a price issue, that’s a quality one.
Trust me when I say, our payment and delivery terms were the toughest in the marketplace and the reason Tiderace survives is because the first consideration is the quality of the product, sadly at the expense of commercial advantage.
not picking a fight
Just interested. Is there a reason tiderace doesn’t build their own boats in a local shop.
builds these kayaks to a higher level of specification than what a local fabrication shop could do at this point. Cobra is simply a better end product option for Tiderace.
KoolAid and sneakers
You should really stop and smell the roses
Here is a commentary on your paradise - http://business.time.com/2012/10/01/dispelling-the-myth-of-chinese-efficiency
cobra composites is in thailand
just fyi marius
How could I make such a mistake
Bottom line - even though high quality of composite layups can be achieved both in Europe and US the labor costs would price them out of the market not ready to pay premium.
on the plus side…
…you only missed by a few hundred miles. =)
Does Tiderace make a rockered day
boat that would fit big folks - “big” meaning 5’11" 250 Lbs.?