erm…
Throughout the setup phase Tiderace’s MD Dave Felton and/or Designer Aled Williams personally inspected every single boat before it left the factory.
And yes, Tiderace boats are built to a higher specification than Valley, PandH or SKUK and so on. That reflects in the price point and the number of boats sold, but it’s a conscious decision. As a manufacturer, we also had a retail operation that sold boats by Valley and PandH, so we had plenty of exposure to their product.
As for being defensive, I have no need to be defensive at all. I (and many dealers/customers of Tiderace’s) know full well the quality that is produced and the move to Thailand was a huge leap in quality but not necessarily one that improved costs.
If people want to remain ignorant or make accusations that are unfounded, that is up to them.
A response from Tiderace
There are many interesting questions raised here, so I’ll attempt to answer a few.
(By the way, best I introduce myself: I’m Aled Williams, I design the Tiderace boats and oversee production, I live in North Wales, UK)
Over the last 25 years, I’ve designed boats for other manufacturers, was once a partner in setting up our own factory, and recently was a partner in setting up Tiderace. The reason Tiderace does not operate its own factory production is simply down to economics and time. The capital investment in establishing a large factory from scratch is considerable, much deeper than my pockets or the value of my house/savings. I’ve tried starting small - it takes years to work from profits to build to a production size/scale which actually makes money - I never achieved this. I tried it, and ran out of time - it wasn’t sustainable. A new factory would need to be large enough to produce at a level which gave sufficient world wide market volume production and sales penetration to make the company viable. And as I said, that comes at a high price. The alternative is to seek a 3rd party manufacturer, which is the model Tiderace has followed. Cobra is our fourth manufacturer (after a world wide search), 3 other companies ultimately failed to deliver. High quality and volume production are hard to find in a 3rd party manufacturer, Cobra have provided both. 60% (ish) of the worlds total output of surfboards, windsurf boards, SUPs and kiteboards comes out of this factory - this level of success speaks for itself. They also build yachts and sailing dingies and in the automotive section manufacture composite parts for Audi, BMW, Ferrari and Lamborghini. This is no eastern sweat shop! It’s probably one of the most high-tech volume composites manufacturers in the world. Their factory arrangement gives us a dedicated production team, a separate QA team and all the logistics support we need. To be honest, its a fun place to be. We get exactly what we ask for, on time, to quality, in volume - having this level of manufacturing support allows Tiderace to grow quickly and efficiently as a company. But better than that, I get to have boats built exactly to my specification, with no restrictions on quality and range of materials, manufacturing processes and graphic technologies - I end up with exactly the boat I envisaged, exactly what I want to paddle.
Cobra is owned and run a Thai family and managed by a very cosmopolitan management staff. But, the real reason why we enjoy working with this factory is about trust, commitment, reciprocating values and a partnership which is committed to honest collaboration and success. I sympathise and understand the conservative approach to buying locally made products, supporting local economies etc. I started out building all my own boats, even sold a few, and employed a hand-full of my neighbours for a while. The demand for the products grew and we grew the company in the way we could. The business now supports us, our manufacturer, and a world wide network of dealers who sell our products.
That’s a little bit of our story, now I’m off paddling… Feel free to ask further questions.
No one gets rich making kayaks
We have 10 boats (long boats and WW) in the basement and under the porch as well as a canoe. The brands include Valley, Necky, NDK, Pyrahnna, P&H, Dagger, Bell, Wavesport and I am not counting my first Current Designs kayak that I sold. We have experienced the new and used pricing levels of all of these brands, obviously. It is likely that the CEO at the conglomorate level, say Johnson Outdoors, is making a damn good salary and may even have some fat bonuses. But no one who is directly living on making and selling kayaks is going to be the featured client on the next installment of Million Dollar Decorator.
Tiderace is putting out some interesting boats, especially that 15 footer. I gradually went to using my 15’8" Vela as primary on big water because it is spritely and just less fuss. The combination of speed and other handling characteristics in that boat has been darned near impossible to replicate so far, despite the fact that it is a pretty old design now. Perhaps the Pace will do that.
I appreciate hearing news like this. As to things like profit margin, if someone suspects that to be a problem they can always just not buy the company’s product and look elsewhere.
the Nuremberg defense
No truth to the rumor that Valley attended without the Pintail or Aquanaut in stock. Or to the Valley rep’s response that “Ve vere only following ze orders”.
In case it got lost …
The response from AW: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1561083#1578380 (copy the full URL, including the #1578380 part)
Aled, thanks for that info.
Sounds like a smart arrangement.
I hope to see one of the Cobra made boats in person, some day.
Finally a reasonable response!
What has irked me about Tiderace and this issue is the pompous and disingenuous claims that have been repeatedly made by some of your associates on these boards. You would be well served to give serious consideration to their judgement and temperament, and how that reflects on your company image.
I believe it is always best focus the message on the merits of ones own product rather than make the discussion about disparaging the competition.
Imagine if BMW announced that it is restructuring, and has decided to outsource all manufacturing to a 3rd party in Korea, claiming that this decision has nothing to do with profitability, and is all about quality.
Then they go on to say that it is no longer possible for anyone to build a car to their quality standards anywhere in Europe, Japan, or North America. When asked the obvious question "what about Mercedes and Audi?", the new BMW boasts that their new 3rd party manufactured cars will be superior to anything Mercedes or Audi ... or any other luxury car brand ... can ever build ... because only their new partner posses the unique skill and technology to make this so.
No one would buy that line, and BMW would be ridiculed.
But suppose instead they said something like this: based on excessive regulations, taxes, and union demands, we are faced with a decision to either compromise on quality in order to continue manufacturing in Europe and North America, or outsource to a country that has more favorable costs. After extensive searching, we have found a manufacturer in Korea that can produce a product that is at least equal to the high quality product our customers know and expect from BMW. That's a heck of a quality statement in itself. In fact, the improved cost structure will allow BMW to improve materials and features. Then they shift the discussion to how this will allow BWM to focus in design and innovations.
See?
Valley, P&H, and a few others are the Mercedes and Audis of Sea Kayaks. Putting Tiderace in that league is enough said on quality: "Cobra can manufacturer our designs to our high standards for quality, and deliver a boat that is as solid and well made as the very best boats on the market today, bar none."
The rest of the discussion is about YOUR boats.
Profits are a good thing …
In business there are decisions made that are based on profits, and decisions based on doing the right thing.
In my 30 years in the business world, I can say that more profitable companies can make more decisions based on doing the right thing, while unprofitable companies have to make most if not all decisions solely based on financials.
My point is that Tiderace made a profit based decision to outsource, which may have offered, and probably did, other benefits. There’s nothing wrong with that.
But some people want to pretend that profit was not the driver, and that IMHO is disingenuous.
So is getting defensive when asked where the product is made. If someone is proud of their product, why treat where it is made like a dirty little secret?
And then there are these outrageous superior quality claims. I’m sure they want to make a quality product, and chose a manufacturer accordingly.
You have some great boats, and far more experience than I do on these things … maybe I’m wrong, but my POV is that, baring occasional defects or problems that can pop up, there are a more than a few companies out there making top quality boats. I can’t imagine a discussion about which boat better built, my Valley vs. a few others in your stable, as being much more than largely subjective and splitting of hairs.
As I see it, Tiderace should strive to be considered in the same class, from a build quality perspective, by the general paddling public as Valley, as P&H, etc.
With the exception of the most recent post today by their owner, these guys have been spinning a bit of a yarn. I hope this signals a change.
more from Tiderace…
@nebeginner
I read your message with a certain horror.
As a company we don’t involve ourselves with direct communication through country specific news groups and bulletin boards such as this one (until now!). Sales, marketing and communication are handled by dealers/distributors in respective countries, and we try to keep them informed about our products as best we can. It’s a cause for concern when the perception of our company values intentionally or unintentionally deviate from what we stand for and what we try to achieve. We also realise, sometimes with regret, that curbing the enthusiasm of passionate individuals is beyond our control, especially in public forums. It’s our policy never to directly compare our products with those from another manufacturer. Our products are aimed at discerning paddlers who can evaluate the merits, advantages/disadvantages, shortcomings of our products for themselves. We rely a lot on the integrity of our dealers to uphold this quality of service and to guide a potential customer to purchasing the best product for them - whether it be a Tiderace product or not. Beyond what is available on our website and in dealer workbooks, we will happily supply anyone who requests further specific information about the design and construction of our kayaks. We openly reveal what our boats are made of, down to individual layers within our laminates, resin types and quality, reinforcing materials - also design features such as stability, resistance and load carrying values (we can quote this for specific paddler weight/boat weight/cargo weight combinations). We could (possibly) bore you for hours on our design philosophy and our interpretation of how kayaks should perform and handle - we paddle our boats avidly and we believe in what we create.
So I urge you to disregard any offensive, defamatory or derogatory assertions supposedly said on our behalf as these are unlikely to reflect the true values of what we stand for. If specific answers are not forthcoming by our official partners, please get in touch with us direct.
Aled Williams