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Instructions and Updates
#61

Hello Magooch. Thanks for the input.

9 foot waves? WOW! That would be fun if I were more experienced, but for now 2.5 foot is about where I draw the line.
I do not have the right boat for real high chop.

I am interested in getting 2 of them in the future, for myself and my wife but for now I am in the “asking stage” of things.

I take our Recreational Kayaks out in water that others say is too tough for them, but so far it’s not been a problem for me until the winds got to about 35 MPH. I was able to paddle well enough to still get back to where I needed to, but JUST BAIRLY. That was giving me chop of 2 to 3 feet from trough to crests, and white caps on every one of them. A 10-1/2 foot open cockpit boat gets water inside from every single wave in that kind of water. I would have to bail about every 3 minutes of so. I have a spray skirt coming now for it which will help, but the hull design I believe to be inadequate for such weather.
So I am thinking of a good “Sea Kayak” of longer length, but not so long to make transporting or storage difficult or impossible. The number of boats and info is overwhelming for me because I am a newbie, and because I don’t live in an area where we even see such things, so I can’t go anywhere close to try any out. People like yourself with a lot of experience are invaluable to myself and my wife. Someone with 40 years worth of experience can bestow YEARS worth on knowledge to a willing student so the student doesn’t have to repeat his mistakes and can go straight to the things that lead to success.
I am leaning towards something in the 15 to 18 foot category, but I want to hear from those that KNOW instead of those that believe they know.
If you would not mind, I’d love to pick you brain more and tap into you knowledge if you have the time to give. I am at szihn@wyoming.com My name is Steve Zihn.

#62

Back to the nanny thing I know.

But IMO you are not remotely ready to try those wind speeds unless and until you KNOW from practice that you can take a dump and rescue each other in those conditions. I have expectations about the results… but bottom line is you have to know your capabilities including keeping some head room.

I am sitting in a cabin looking at the results of an all day blow of 12 to 15 kph with gusts to 20 to 25. Same thing predicted for tomorrow. I have a boat that can handle those conditions and more without blinking. In that boat yes, I could go out and try for a 1/2 mile crossing to the nearest island either today or tomorrow. Odds are that even as rusty as I am for bouncier stuff right now, I could do it and get back home safe with no worse damage than some sore muscles in the morning and use of colorful language. But if I guess wrong, solo, it could be a pretty bad day.

I am not whatever enough to take that shot. There is a batch of what looks to be perfect weather for going out and exploring fave locations if I get off the beach on the early side Tuesday morning. I will wait.

Long term paddling, being able to really go out and enjoy a lot of new situations, is not about being able to get away with it. It is understanding the safety margins so you can assess what you can do with some amount of reliability. Nothing is perfect and shit happens no matter what. But you can prepare so it is more likely to happen to someone else.

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#63

Well I can’t disagree with you at all Celia it does beg the question “how will I know”?

I and my wife were ignorant enough to not know that 35 MPH was too much. (but now we do) There are no other Kayakers around here that I have ever met. We now know because we did it and found out it was too much. Cyber chatting with others that have 40-+ years of paddling experience is GREAT, but I have to point out that I am in my 60s now and I don’t have 40 years to learn.
So I have to assume I have to press my limits to some extent. That’s true in ANY endeavor and as a former US Marine with the Recon Teams, I do understand you don’t get better by staying at a place of leisurely comfort…in ANTHING!

I got myself enough flotation (vest and full wet suit) to know I can’t sink if I get dumped. I go where I know I can get back to land (in even a 70 MPH wind.) If I lost the kayak I’ds be mad at myself, but where I am doing my practice and training, I would not die. In the Marines I had practice paddling inflatable boats and I do understand water survival well, but pushing hard at "110% as a Marine was not always fun. In fact, there were times that if fun was a location I was in the place on earth that was farthest from it. But I did learn about wet operations.

Now, simply going out on wives with my wife because we like it is SO DIFFERENT, and is a lot of fun or we would not be doing it. But what every time I have left to live on this earth, I do want to life a life that fun and not just some existence of extended mediocrity. To do that I have to push myself some.

If we were to get “Ocean Kayaks” that could handle 9 foot waves and typhoon conditions we’d never go out in them, just because there is no enemy now to defeat and no one deepening on me is going to die if I fail. I am not in the USMC anymore and now it’s all about the fun.
But having boats that can handle conditions well outside my fun-zone seems to make since to me because as I said, in the mountains winds come up fast with no warnings and often you can’t see a storm coming until it crests the mountain top, and that can be only 2-3 miles away from you. Also, we do get wind storms in time where there is not a cloud in the sky (those are the very worst) but those are storms the weather service can tell you are coming, so we just won’t go when we know that is a possibility. Spring and summer winds that are steady at 50-80 MPH are just part of the Wyoming “landscape” and we just accept them. But I sure would not go one the water knowing such a storm was on the way.

As for my abilities and my boat’s abilities, I have no way of knowing other then to try. I learned (right before my 1st post here) that 35 MPH is too much to have fun in with a 10.5 foot Old Town Loon.
Yesterday we were out in 5 to 20 MPH and that was fun and controllable for us both. If I had both spray skirts I think a bit more would be fine too. 25 MPH was fun too, but I expect it would not be if we had to go for very long in it.

But we want to know how we’d do in a sea kayak with good spray skirts. There is no way for us to know without doing it, and we can’t just buy boats every time we want to try something different, so that the main focus now. To learn from others. As many others if we can. The Bible says “A wise man seeks many councils” so that’s what I am doing.

I am a super green armature with kayaks, but neither my wife or I are totally green when it come to waves and water. Anna is an experienced Scuba Diver, Skin Diver and sail boater. She’s a good swimmer and she is also in a full wet suit and we are staying within about 400 yards from land every time we decide to try something that pushes out abilities because we KNOW we’ll fail to get perfect results every time. But you learn from trying to a place you fail, not be learning to be “good enough” and never going any farther.

My Sister goes to Alaska and Kayaks the inlets up there and now she’s asking Anna and I to go too. Every time she’s gone the water has been flat and fairly calm, but the ocean can get bad at times so it makes me wonder if the loon would be a good one to take? Flat water is flat water, but having a boat for all conditions may be better then having one for flat water only.
Again, I don’t really know.

#64

Like your enthusiasm and thanks for your service Marine!

Would you like to go from boot camp to a hot LZ or urban combat situation by skipping all the intermediary learning and team building that goes on between those two situations? Unfortunately that is what most new paddlers attempt to do. Learning to paddle safely and how to handle different situations is a process learned over time with lots of practice and time in the seat of a kayak. Along the way most learn what characteristics one wants in a kayak. Part of the fun of kayaking (at least for me and most of my paddling friends) is testing different kayaks and paddles. It is sort of like going to a gun range and trying out different weapons.

You are lucky that there are several ACA river and coastal instructors in Wyoming. I highly encourage you to look up the ACA website ( https://www.americancanoe.org/page/Find_Instruction Click on “Instructors” then follow the drop down menu to either river kayaking (RK) or coastal kayak (CK) ). Then contact one of your semi-local instructors directly about when they offer beginner classes. Doing so will jump start your learning by investing in yourself and introduce you to other paddlers in your state area. I suggest doing this before buying any kayaks/kayak equipment beyond what you already own.

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#65

You have an immediate and extremely available way to test this. You said your winds on the reservoir regularly go 15 mph or so. Find a place along one of the more open shorelines, where you are not way off from the shoreline and on the side that if you are going to get blown it’ll towards shore or into a protected Cove. Like said, you need to learn your local winds.

Then start capsizing, one at a time, see if one of you still in the boat can assist the other to get into theirs. If you have more success at than l expect you will at first, BOTH of you hit the water and try to get back into your boats. With as much wave and wind action you can get without risking being blown further out or into motor boat traffic.

Some things are just a matter of trying them. If it doesn’t work you need to stay in easier conditions until you gain more skills and/or more rescue friendly boats.

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#66

Kayakhank you are a blessing!

I have never heard of ACA until your post. THAT’S the kind of info and links I need. THANK YOU! I used it and I am going to make contact tomorrow

And your analogy is understood and accepted, but I can add that in the USMC you are trained to a degree or competency and then more is added (dumped on you) and “the only easy day was yesterday” You drive and drive and drive and give 110% at all times, and that is why the troops get so good at their jobs and do so very quickly. We pushed to the point of danger and injury on a regular basis. But knowing the reason for the harshness of the training made Marines accept some degree of danger in that training. There was a lot more danger then “some” when you get deployed. The hard training pays.

But I have NO INTENTION of doing that kind of training with any Kayak, but I also don’t want to get comfortable at a certain level and accept it’s fine for a few years. I want to add enough of a challenge every time I try something new to know I have some chance of failing, but set up the training close enough to land that when (not if) I fail I don’t die or end up in a hospital room for a month. Anna is a quick study also, but we both know if you don’t push you don’t grow very fast.

I hope I do get to try different Kayaks.

I am going to call the instructor tomorrow and see what she can offer us. One thing I am certain of: She’s not going to put Anna or myself in a dangerous situation if she has any level of professionalism at all. So a parallel to kicking doors or landing in a hot LZ is a valid point, but I assure you, I would not do anything dangerous and if I sense any real danger I would be the 1st to pull up short. I didn’t survive my time as a Marine by being blind or stupid. I do not share the Kamikaze or bomb vest wearing fanatic’s mindset of conflict, especially when there is no war and there’s no one behind me I am protecting. No one’s life is depending on my abilities to paddle in rough water------ and the only “deaths that are pending” are that of Anna and myself. There are no battels here to win, let alone fight. So those pending deaths are to be from very old age if I can help it at all.

So yes I want to try rougher water, but not deadly water so soon. Not all challenges need to be deadly.

Today I went back out and was in chop about 16" from troughs to crests but the white caps were lacking, and I found I could move around easily and freely and even when crossing the waves and wind the troubles I had maintaining a course even 1 month ago see to be nearly gone now.

I like the way you think Celia. But Anna and I already thought of that. Anna is better are self rescued than I am, and was doing fine in rough conditions from her first try. She jumps out in white caps and get back in like she was born to it.

Me…not as smooth. I failed and failed and failed. Then I got a paddle float. I also rigged a cinch tie on the deck behind my cockpit and yesterday I used the tie for the 1st time. What a difference!
I easily attach the float and blow it up. I then tie the other end of my paddle to the deck to keep it from any slippage. Using my bucket I hold on to the cockpit and bail out much of the water, but with the tupperware bucket I use I have the boat ready to re-mount in about 90 seconds. I hook my leg over the paddle and keeping pressure downwards on the other side of the cockpit, I shimmy myself over the boat and screw myself into the seat again. I did that several times yesterday in some rough chop and did well, each time getting smoother and faster. One trick I learned for myself it to shimmy forward as the float rises on the wave, so my foot feels higher then my head. Makes the shimmy forward a bit downhill. When it drops I stay where I am and wait for the next wave. By timing things that way I found the re-entry was actually fast and easy. So the paddle float made a WORLD of difference for me.

Anna has not had to help me ever, because the times I failed I used the paddle in the water survival stoke (I learned that from the SEALS at Amphib/Recon/UDT training back in the early 70s) with the boat tied to the paddle in the center, and paddled myself and the kayak both to the shallows, where I could stand up could dump it out and get back in.
But now that I made the cinch tie and I have the float, self rescue is something that’s not near as difficult as I first thought it was.

As a note to those reading: The water survival paddle stoke is easy but far easier if you use a shorter paddle. You raise the blade out of the water as you would your hand when doing a swim crawl, and when it enters the water you simply pull it back to your shoulder and do the same thing with the other hand and blade. Left, right, left, right. That’s a simple and easy skill to learn and I assume many Kayakers already know it, but I thought it may be worth the time to write it here, incase someone out there has never done it. It truly can be a life-saver and turn a very difficult swim into an easy one.

Well it’s late.
Good night to all and God bless you for your advice and comments. You have no idea how helpful you all have been and I hope will continue to be.

#67

Ok, l am glad you guys can usually self rescue, your part seems to be sometimes not.

As to the ACA, l mentioned it by name five days ago in this thread when l suggested you call the folks at the kayak rental place in Thermoplasis and ask about getting some training. I figured you could check them out on the web if you were serious about learning skills.

It appears l was wasting my time.

You may need to work on paying attention to suggestions from females, especially if the one you plan to call is.

I have seen people pay money for a class then spend most of the time questioning the instructors suggestions. It was a monumental waste of time and money for everyone.

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#68

The gender card? Really? You are one of the posters here was was most impressed with, but now I wonder. Those kind of comments simply discredit you and bring into question your motives and make people wonder if you are more interested in personal politics than you are in helping. Maybe you ARE wasting your time on me, but there are other men and women that are not.
If you want to stop “wasting it” that’s ok.

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#69

You are not the only one who is wondering.

Time will tell about your response to others as you learn skills.

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#71

70 mph? you’re just ignorant or foolish(stupid)

#72

CoronaBoy you need to learn to read carefully before you say anything snide. Context is important.
That’s a good life-lesson for you to learn.

#73

I reread that 70mph a few times before I posted… You might be on the shoreline to get back unless you’re blown to shore in that kind of wind… Come on, I don’t care about your past military history( thank you for serving) but since you said you have a great knowledge of wind, 35 mph is hard to do much less than the 70 you said, unless you’re Superman

#74

I’ve got a fair amount of experience with winds at 20-25 and it’s not like it’s a constant blow… with gusts, it’s crazy and you’re a newbie and you can get back to shore in gale winds…oh come on…

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#75

Oh, you were a Marine(always a Marine )probably a long time ago you couldn’t have the stamina you had. ( my son, a Lutenient Commander in the Navy, a top gun aviator, top gun instructor, and much more says he dosen’t have what it took 10 years ago…

#76

LOL, context? It’s pretty clear to me that you said 70mph wind and that you could get back to shore. BS—that’s full on hurricane wind (people drown in less). And if you’re still in that “pop boat”? Uhm. No. I also seriously question 35 mph winds and 2’ waves. [The Beaufort Scale would argue otherwise.] (Beaufort Wind Scale). You sir, seem to be the kind of person who doesn’t have the sense to sense danger. Or, you’re full of BS. Or, you’re a troll. My money is on some combination of the 3.

On the chance that I’m wrong? It’d be in your own best interests to drop the machismo. Just stop, listen and realize these people are trying to save you grief. I doubt you’d be giving this kind of blowback to a CO. There’s an incredible spectrum of knowledge in this group. Learn from it. Your longevity might depend on it.

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#77

Well I was pretty sure I made it clear I would be blown TO shore in a heavy wind, Even a 70 MPH wind came up when I was on the water because of how I set things up. Maybe I was not clear enough in how I wrote it, but that’s exactly how I have been training. Going directly into the wind so when I fail (as I have not a few time) the wind blows be BACK to the truck not away from it.
But I believe anyone would agree, if you set up enough flotation so you cannot sink and the wind is blowing you exactly opposite of the way you try to go, you will go back close to were you started. If you go back and re-read what I wrote in detail I think (I hope ) you’ll see what I said and not some macho statement.
that’s the contest I was speaking about. If that understanding didn’t come through from how I wrote it I am sorry, but if you read the post in context you’ll see NO bragging at all, but only calls for discussion and requests for advice.

But Insults and childish statement are not worthy of response. That stopped being an activity I was interested in about the time I got out of 4th grade.

#78

According to your previous posts, you are 65, in a rec kayak, and claim to be able to paddle in, and possibly against a 70 mph wind. Impressive.

I was in an 18’ sea kayak on the Tred Avon River when a front came in six hours early with 20-25 knot sustained winds right down the river. It was alI I could do hugging the shore for every bit of protection from the wind I could find to manage 1 mph or less by GPS against the wind. Much more wind and I would have been going backwards. The river ferry had stopped operation.

On a large body of water, you could easily land with a 70mph wind behind you, but it would likely be rather amusing to all that witnessed it.

#79

He’s right …we’re stupid…

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#80

How you set things up? yea that’s just how things work out…just the way you imagine them…NOT

#81

I just can’t let this go… any weather reports from the daily local news in your area would advise of the weather conditions for the forseeable future and YOU’RE going to be cought offguard and still make it back to your truck? You seriouisly are a JACKASS, DUMBASS, STUPIDASS, and more…a stastistic…