context
is hard to gauge over the internet.
Brian, who feels he is a technically savvy person in regard to boat construction may get some sand in his speedo when he sees any company praised who consistently manufactures a product with defects and sub standard materials and methods.
That said, I think what brian and many others always forget to put in writing is the great joy there is in paddling an NDK. Even my hardened heart can see some good in them. The designs are really excellent, stable, fun craft to paddle in rough weather with a load.
But they are just opinions, and I think there is enough inherint good in even the worst NDK boat to outweigh the continuing defects, bad materials, and methods of construction. But I do see Brian’s point that most owners enthusiasm for their own kayaks silences the defects on occassion, and maybe people should be warned.
My kayak has it’s defects, the last kayak I owned had it’s defects, and every one of them has some quirk.
defects or quirks
> My kayak has it’s defects, the last kayak I owned had it’s defects,
and every one of them has some quirk.
Let’s distinguish between manufacturing defects and design “quirks”. The latter are the inevitable result of design compromises. You (presumably) know when you buy a boat what it does well and what it does not so well. For example, the Explorer is not all that fast for a 17’8" boat. But owners know and accept that compromise “quirk”. The Valley Aquanaut, arguably as good in rough water, is faster than an Explorer but has less primary stability. The Pintail is squirrely, but that also makes it “playful”. And so on. Those are “quirks”
But no glass in the end of the keel, so damage to the gel coat holes the boat… that’s a manufacturing defect. And so is a coaming incompletely bonded to the deck. And leaky seams… and so on… and on and on for NDK boats, at least in the past.
Frankly, I’ve never heard a single complaint about manufacturing defects for a Valley boat, though I’m sure they exist.
So, quirks, yes. Defects, no.
–David.
NDK
I’ve owned two Explorer’s and sold both for QC (skeg), sticky rope seat and don’t like the small hatches. My buddies and lots of professionals paddle Explorer’s–they are fabulous boats. In my experience, QC is much better now that it was a few years ago. A recent shipment to the East Coast with 20+ boats had no rejects. Nigel did a training in NC. What a neat guy–quiet, humble, funny, and a great teacher and paddler. His comment about the business was that he sold off the parts he wasn’t fond of (school trips, retail store, food) and kept what he liked and wanted to focus on (intermediate to advanced paddling and making the world’s best boats). Now if only they’d get rid of those 10 inch hatches!
Oh yeah
Other Brands, Small Hatches
Actually, while Valley has been making their boats well for a while now, you may want to talk to people who received boats early last spring that suddenly (and without announcement from Valley) arrived with plastic seats. Dealers have had to replace just about all of them because the plastic seats start breaking within about a year.
The smaller hatches are noted for not leaking - and I have to say my bulkeads are bone-dry on my Explorer. It just makes for more trips with small bags packing and unpacking the boat… and in the LV restricts the size or thickness of thermarest mattress I can use. But I’m not big anyway.
Getting my boat became a good bit more complicated than preferable, and there may be sexier boats out there in terms of speed or twitch, but no way would I part from my Explorer LV. There’s nothing I’d rather be in for big water.
If you are taking more trips it’s time
to put your little bags into a big mesh duffel and carry in on your shoulder. Still have to pack all the smaller bags but trip number should be ununafffected by hatch size.
what valley boat weighs what it is listed
valley has its problems with leaky hatches, leaky skeg boxes, leaky seams, leaky cockpit rims, or cockpit rims that are so recessed that you can’t get a skirt around them.
But they are great designs.
cost/quality/service
if a product has some quality deficiencies then the price should be lower, that’s why Seda costs less. If there’s a kayak that paddles well but is made inconsistantly AND costs more it’s kind of frustrating because you’d like the details in construction to equal the experience in the performance goals.
Current GRO weight list
I think the current list of weights on the GRO site is a pretty accurate average for various Valley models. They are hand made boats, and the weight will vary a bit from boat to boat.
Valley defects seem rare in recent years. Mine is beautifully made (not as neatly made as my wife’s P&H Vela, though better than her NDK Explorer LV which is made well for an NDK boat.)
sorry but I think
the weight listed for the nordkapp is under by about 5-7 lbs, check the review from sea kayaker mag for what they listed their nordkapp h20 that they test paddled. It was 65lbs.
Most of the other kayaks are under listed too. I don’t think this makes valley a bad sea kayak manufacturer, or their kayaks inferior, but it does show that no one is perfect.
P&H makes great kayaks too. But they have their issues too,
leaky hatches, bubbled gelcoat, defective skeg boxes, and even warped kayaks.
Bottom line is, no one is perfect.
Valley
Lets leave NDK alone and just bash Valley boats!!
No, but seriously, my Nordkapp Jubilee weighed 63lbs dry even though it was touted as being 56lbs. Also, the gelcoat had pretty good sized bubbles in it near the skeg rail and behind the cockpit. But I sold it because I couldn’t get used to it, not because it was heavy or had some minor imperfections.
The only “perfect” boats I have seen are the handmade ones by Nick S., Jay B. and the like. Course, they will probably be the first to tell you even theirs are not perfect!! (even though one of Nick’s hangs in the Museum of Fine Art).
All kidding aside, if I ever DO get a perfect boat…I will never paddle it as I won’t want to be the one to ruin it’s perfection!!
Hmmm…
SK's weight on the Aquanaut was also notably more than had been stated. My recollection is that SK weighed the Aquanaut they had at 62lbs while GRO listed the weight at 55 or 56.
This lead to a round of weighing Aquanauts. Stan weighed the ones he had and found that they weighed from around 58 to around 60lbs.
I believe that the boat is now listed on the GRO site as 59lbs.
I haven't weighed my ProLite Aquanaut, but it seems to me (from hauling a range of boats) that it likely weighs 52-53 lbs, which would be roughly consistent with 59lbs minus the 10% reduction in weight the ProLite layup is supposed to provide.
But, maybe both my wife and I are a lot stronger than we think. Maybe our 'Brit boat muscles' make things seem much lighter than they are ;-)
Of course every kayak manufacturer has some issues. Our friends Chatham 18 is among the most beautifully made production boats I've seen. However, just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to a Necky dealer that had seen some issues with a couple of Chathams.
My sense is that, among the British boats most often seen in these parts, P&H usually has the most consistent high build and finish quality, followed by Valley and then NDK.
Some Canadian makers seem to be the most consistent high quality of any I've seen (Seaward and Boreal).
Yeah - I do that
The last thing in is a big duffle. But I don’t always rememeber it, and any first time user with the smaller hatches is going to find that to be a surprise.
If you were to look back at my posts…
…(a painful thought, perhaps), you’ll see that I have never criticized the performance of NDK boats and have commented favorbly on it many times. I certainly have no issues with it and I fully understand why people buy NDK boats, despite their problems.
Are you talking about VCP or NDK?
I’ve not had any of the problems you listed with any of the Valley boats I or my girlfriend have owned. If they do occur, it’s not with anywhere near the regularity that such defect occur in NDK boats. For VCP, such a defect would be a fluke; for NDK, it’s par for the course.
You’re splitting hairs, Keith
The fact that “no one is perfect” in the kayak industry in no way excuses a company that consistently produces a defective product.
Would you rather buy a product from a company that has a 50% defect rate, a 5% defect rate or a .5% defect rate? The defect rate speaks strongly about the quality and consistency of the manufacturing process.
Would you rather buy a product from a company that you know uses high quality materials or one that you know uses lower quality materials?
Buying inferior quality products only encourages the manufacturer to continue cutting corners. This creates a serious dilemma when the product performs well if you get a good one or fix a defective one. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
um, QC issues in the US too…
naming no names, but I and several others have had QC and customer service issues with an American kayak company too.
Like everything else, it’s seems to be about marketing, quantity, bottom line and money nowadays.
being quite bald
I doubt i am truly splitting hair’s. 
I think your ideas about quality and value are very valid.
And maybe, (big maybe) my point about no kayak being perfect from any manufacturer are off point.
But at a certain point it just doesn’t matter, because if someone likes the Explorer, or Romany design, they are most likely going to buy it any way despite all the rants on this site about quality.
In an ideal world no one would be rewarded for doing a bad job, they would be castigated, thrown over the capstan and given 20 lashes with a cat o nine tails.
My question is, how many lashes do you wanna give?
We don’t need no steenking lashes!
The situation here on the forum is that new people are constantly arriving and what seems like “the same ole thang” to us “regulars” is news to them. It’s not a question of rehashing old points just for the sake of doing so, or of “flogging a dead horse”; it’s for the benefit of new folks who may not have heard it before.
this is so true
it’s only old news to us, I guess, and I should remember this and just not post, but a man’s gotta type eh?