A SEAL and I went out in my canoe…
…on a swamp near Picayune, Ms. PFD’s must
be present but not worn. (I don’t remember the
last time I didn’t wear one.) As he was putting
his on, I said something about it and he told
me, “It just takes me longer to drown without
it.”
I figure if it’s good enough for a SEAL to wear,
it’s good enough for anyone.
Safety
Sorry for slightly changing the topic, but here’s a thought I often get when these things are discussed.
Isn’t it the commulative safety that really matters? Who’s more safe: A paddler wearing a PFD but without a roll or a paddler with a bombproof roll without a PFD?
It’s easy and very “democratic” to enforce a strict PFD rule(as everybody can afford a PFD) but if you /really/ want safety - how about enforcing a proven-bombproof-roll-in-combat-conditions rule? That’s hardly as democratic as few seakayakers got a combat roll (in my experience), still safety is safety?
My kayak club enforce a PFD rule during winter which I mostly live by. However I really don’t put much faith in my PFD. Where the heck am I going to swim?
/Peter
While reading this thread
I was at first going to agree with Randy.
But then I got to g2d’s response, and I like it!
Jim
grinning evily
It’s your rule…enforce it.
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 9:17 AM EST –
Tell them to go paddle on their own if they don't want to abide by your rules and wear approved PFDs. Their obstinance could jeopardize the safety of the group. Also, if they're that stubborn and stupid about something so obviously beneficial to their safety, think about what other problems they're likely to cause. It's not worth the risk or the hassle.
If you feel bad about excluding them, think of it as "tough love". ;-)
Make them wear it.
As a rower I often don’t wear the pfd unless the water is cold or rough. However Whenever I’m with a group and reminded that they are mandatory I immediately put it on and appologize for not having it on.
If someone wants to be part of your group, then they should play nice. If they are not eager to follow the group then I wouldn’t let them come along. If a gentle reminder won’t help them, then exclude them from the group.
i notice the difference
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 10:03 AM EST –
between bnystroms and grayhawks responses. bny lives in the northeast. grayhawk is in florida. that said, if i were going to paddle in a group where pfds are expected, i'd wear one. you have the right to ask them not to paddle with your group if they refuse to comply. in your situation i would not invite them again.
No club?
Bob, I also know that you, like me, sometimes go without one. It’s our decision whether the conditions warrant it or not.
But my take is that if you’re not a club, you can have no rules. A friendly reminder each and every time you go out is all you can do. How would you keep someone from paddling with you?
I don’t think you can make them do it,
and it is their life, not yours. But you can hector them about it enough that they either start wearing one or get annoyed and stop going out with your group. Usually I’m a live and let live person, and don’t like rudeness, but in this case I think it is okay. You’ve got a group going that has a culture, and it is natural to exclude someone who deliberately refuses to conform. Plus, you don’t want to ruin your paddling trip having to rescue their dumb ass. Now come to think of it, just say that. Get your group to be unified in agreeing that these people conform or leave. Give them one more nice admonishment to wear it, and if they don’t, tell them you all have decided you’d rather they don’t paddle with you because you don’t want to ruin your outings rescuing their dumb ass. If they persist in following your group out, completely ignore them. Tough love.
I don’t think they are breaking the law
I don’t know about New York, but Texas does not require adults to wear PFDs on any vessel but PWC. All others just need one per person aboard.
I was teaching a good friend to
kayak and told him to put on his PFD. He explained that he could easily swim the lake distance many times over, he is a competitive master swimmer. I explained that it wasn’t for his saftey but mine. If he got flipped, entangled, and was combative, I would be afraid to rescue him, Until I retrieved my spare wooden paddle and rendered him unconsious. He put on his PFD.
The Law of the Sea
Being a sailor (former seascout and collegiate sailor) before getting into kayaking, I have noticed that kayakers are less steeped in the traditions of the seagoing than sailors. There is an unwritten law of the sea that you come to the aid of any vessel in distress. That is the ethical duty, and we weren’t taught that you were released from that because the person was a dumbass.
I for one would have trouble dealing with watching someone drown when there was something I could have done about it, EVEN IF I knew I HAD to make the choice to let them die because going after them would have unreasonably put me in harm’s way.
skills vs. safety gear
I would say that a paddler with a bombproof roll without a PFD is much safer than a paddler with a PFD without a roll. With that said, a paddler with a bombproof roll AND a PFD is even safer than the previous two paddlers.
As an avid Greenland style paddler/roller, I often do not wear a PFD for practicing or I simply wear a belt style inflatable PFD for legality. Still, I am a big PFD proponent and will always wear one if the conditions/temperatures call for it. If I were paddling with a group with a PFD policy, I would absolutely wear a PFD. It’s not my party so I don’t get to make up my own rules.
keep that paddle handy
It is good for lots of things.
How times change…
When I was younger folks used to insist it was reckless to allow anyone into a canoe (and I suppose it would apply to kayaks if there was anyone around who had one…) who wasn’t a “good swimmer.” PFD’s were required by law to be in the boat and, back then and where I was, floating seat cusions qualified. Red Cross & Boy Scout manuals illustrating strokes etc. were full of photos of experts demonstrating strokes, recovery techniques, etc. and most were without PFDs.
While I think wearing a PFD is a fine idea anytime and under a great many paddling conditions not wearing one is downright dumb, it has to be said that lots of folks survived that era. Contrary to what some now apparently believe, I don’t think Darwinian evolution was affected much.
We all choose our own risks in everything we do. If we blow it, we pay. Fine.
BUT when paddling with others there are the concerns of others in the party to consider as well. So, out of consideration, I ALWAYS wear a PFD when paddling with anyone who expresses a concern. I do it for them and not for me.
This might be the way to approach it with these folks of whom you speak. Just tell them that they’re making folks uncomfortable, that you don’t know if its reasonable or not, but that’s how some folks in the group feel. We’re ALL out here to have a good time, so please just humor us and wear a PFD today.
This is perhaps a digression, but I have to say I frankly think there are those who are a little too anxious and a little too insistant in the expression of their “safety concerns”. I think there are some who use safety as a sacred cow but are, in fact, more concerned about establishing themselves as “the leader” or in putting on a display of “expertise” than they truely are about safety. I’ve met folks who I believe might have to restrain themselves from the practice of “tough love” on folks wearing cotton undies in 3’ of still water in mid summer. For these folks safety is just a smoke screen. There are indeed “safety nazis” in this world.
I try not to paddle with such folks but when I have I’ve felt like I’d been made a subordinate by giving in to their dictates by wearing my PFD.
My inclination is to oppose them even if I would otherwise have worn one. You don’t want to make folks feel like that.
Its not productive. It could even result in an unsafe situation.
I’m sure this isn’t where you’re coming from, but it might be how some take it…
Heck, I don’t know… You were there. I’m just offering some thoughts to mull over.
finding the right pfd for your body
Three years ago I began my search. In the end, I can say that having one that fits right and is comfortable to paddle while wearing solved the whole PFD question for me.
I wanted a nice one, a Lotus perhaps but they didn’t fit around me at the beginning of the summer.
My first pfd was a gigantic one purchased on line from Cabelas. It worked okay but it made me miserable if I made a wet exit with my bad knee.
My second pfd came from Gander Mountain on sale in early August and it was cheaper. It kept hitting me in the nose and chin when I paddled - so …
Two weeks later I was able to fit into a Lotus. It wasn’t cheap but it was worth every one of its ninety some dollars because it fits well and therefore I wear it.
I strongly suspect folks don’t wear them because they have not found the right one for their body type and activity. It is worth looking around for, paying for, and losing inches off your waist for to have a pfd that you will wear. Even if you are so plump you will float well with or without it.
It’s Your Paddle
It’s your group, your paddle, you get to make the rules.
Cotton nazis
I wear cotton boxers under my synthetics in winter, and ofter wear all cotton in Galveston in the summer, where the water temps are in the mid 80s and the air temp is in the mid 90s. I haven’t died once. The time I’ve been caught in a downpour have felt pretty good, and I was never worried about needing anything more than my pfd to keep my core warm.
Liability
Whether or not a group would be liable for ones demise on the water due to their refusing to wear a PFD is another avenue to be considered.
My spouse and I take the time to organize, as Ness does, outings and when the e-mails are sent out we note “wearing of PFD’s is required and EVERYONE attending is responsible for their own safety.” But some still do not get it. And these are adults(?). I do confront, with one other person in attendance as a witness, those who do not want to wear a PDF and note wearing of one is required with our group and if they refuse, we are not responsible for injuries they may incur.
Aside from that, if you don’t wear your PFD and per chance something happens, you are not the only one impacted. Everyone has at least one person in their life who cares about them. Think about someone other than yourself or your “freedom” for once in your life. What we do or don’t do almost always affects others and can either bring happiness or great sorrow to others. There are more people out there who care about you than you think. Stay safe for them, too.
Don’t take chances! Be smart! Smart paddlers wear PFD’s! It’s easier to put one on ahead of time than try to do so in water that’s over your head. Try it sometime.
Paddler safe!
MIchigan NANA
Thread drift
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 1:40 PM EST –
This thread shows why there's a problem: people are too eager to pontificate about safety issues and throw epithets at those who don't comply. Whether PFD use is a good thing is not what the original poster asked. The question was how to get people to comply with the group's rules on PFD use. Telling them they'd be stupid not to just isn't going to work with most people. Nobody likes being bossed around, especially with the kind of attitude that's on display here.
Again, if it's a rule, enforce it. No PFD, no paddle. If it's not a rule, say your piece and then let it go. Making a big argument of it just annoys people and probably reduces the chance that they'll quietly put the PFD on next time.
Words I Would Use
Our little group has one rule. We insist that everyone wear a Coast Guard approved PFD. As your potential rescuers, we protect our own safety when everyone has good floatation.
Lou