Who, Me?
Hi there Ness. I think there has been times when we’ve paddled together that the wifey and I haven’t worn our PFD’s. I think we only did it on warm days, and never in flowing or unfamiliar waters. It sounds like you would feel more comfortable if everyone were to wear them anytime when we are out with the group. I guess it would be a lot safer. I’ll try to do better, I didn’t know it was a worry to you. Darn, I guess I can’t go shirtless and show my scar!
cry baby
it said we met 3 paddlers, not that they were part of any group, not your problem or business to force anyone to do anything, lets force everyone to wear bike helments because someone got hurt once, just another cry baby do gooder minding everyone business but his own.
Way to go Dan
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 9:49 PM EST –
That is a great example of a win-win style of conflict management; even a little humor to go with it.
BOB
If Iwanted peopleto tell em how to live
my life, I’d live in a police state…
oops, you already want me to live in a police state! seig heil!
Fact! I am required by law to carry some form of PFD on my boat. I comply.
But there is no law that forces me to wear it!
Gosh all golly, I’ll bet we could reduce drownings by forcing every swimmer in a pool to wear a PFD too. Or better yet, legislate the accompanyment of a certified life-guard (hourly salary paid for by the paddlers) with every paddle trip.
Wear one if you want but let me do as I wish. There ar already too many safety nazi’s out there. And if OSHA had their way, kayaks would be outlawed as too dangerous.
Cotton?
I just saw the above post mentioning cotton. Ooops. Just the other day we were looking at pictures from our first year of kayaking, and yep, you guessed it, there we were, wearing jeans.
Ness educated us on the problems of wearing such clothing. True, the risk is small, but why take a risk. Plus, we look pretty cool in tight-fitting, all black clothing. Ness is just trying to keep everyone safe, and as a poster said earlier, it is her that could be hurt trying to rescue someone who isn’t properly equipped, and who fails to follow some basic, simple rules.
(I never wear a bike helmet though).
Reef
I have heard that there is at least one P-netter couple (they can identify themselves if they want)who, when paddling with a group of their friends, was accused along with other members of the group of wearing “killer cotton.” (And this is under warm, safe conditions) As the story goes they covertly planned a group response to this individual.
The idea was to put and end to this nonsense by getting the group in the shallows and waiting for the recurrent and inevitable chastisement of their wearing apparel. That’s the cue for all cotton wearers to simultaneously dump their boats. Ideally then everyone is to “rise up from the depths” like the zombies in “Night of the Living Dead.” The group then wades awkwardly after the cotton nazi with arms outstretched as if wishing to eat their brains and saying stuff like “Ahm ded.” (BTW, Remember when Beatle Paul died?)
I don’t know if the cotton nazi was really scared straight by this or not, but it sure sounded like fun.
Deep Doo-Doo
I paddle with a case of Sea Kayaker’s “Deep Trouble” in my rear hatch for free distribution whenever I see people without a PFD, in cotton, balanced standing peeing out their otherwise waterproof drysuit front relief zipper, or in a Pungo 100.
One method I have used
Is to affirm their desire to not wear a PFD ( no law against stupidity). As a long time Instructor and trip leader I make the point that they are affecting my desires as well. In the event of a swim, whether they request it or not, I will feel responsible for their safety and by not wearing a pfd they make it more difficult for me. This approach has never failed me, but if they still refused I would probably not go on the paddle.
Falcon
No, Dan, it wasn’t you…
…but through this discussion I’m learning how folks view this issue. It’s been very helpful.
The Coast Guard boating safety class I took really stressed PFD use, on any boat. So did the ACA class. So I guess I have been schooled that PFD use is a must. Accidents do happen.
And yes, I DO worry. That’s just my nature. Umm, I don’t recall you and your spouse not wearing PFDs; when did you slip that by me, huh? LOL! 
Agreed. N/M
Read It Again.
– Last Updated: Feb-25-06 6:50 AM EST –
"In the last year, we have met a few paddlers, who have attended paddle dates we have set up, who were...ummm..."non-compliant" in the use of Coast Guard-approved PFDs."
They have every right to not wear their pfd. However, if they were to show up and expect to paddle on a trip that I organized, I feel I have every right to say, "Hey, take off, you're not part of my group."
No crying would be involved, at least not on my part. :)
sing
Another "Method…"
I would consider is to find the nastiest tidal rip, lead them there, and let them have fun when they capsize and swim. Experience is the best teacher, provided you survive to learn something.
sing
(evil counterpart in control this morning.)
Lots Of Opinions
And lots of advice as usual here. Interesting to read. I wear my PFD while paddling mainly because I know I would not be able to manage to put it on in a hurry if I needed to, while in the cockpit or water.
That being said I would not tell anyone, with the exception of my kids, that they had to wear a PFD. I do attempt to try and evaluate a prospective paddle partners overall ability and equipment level prior to a paddle with them. I also try and consider my overall ability and equipment level before paddling with others. My personal threshold of being ready and equiped properly varies based upon where the paddle is.
Happy Paddling,
Mark
You need to also factor in…
… that when paddling G-style you most likely are wearing a tuilik - which is really a PFD of sorts on it’s own - and better in some ways (trapped air and insulation) particularly if neoprene.
one more silly idea
Ok, this might not help, because why should you have to spend any money, but . . . perhaps if your group pitched and got a couple of cheap pfd’s, safe but not particularly comfortable, preferably hideous, you could offer non-compliant paddlers the option to wear it, or not to paddle with you. It would actually be a generous gesture, but at the same time it would encourage them to get their own good pdf. Again, I can see why you shouldn’t have to spend your money, but if you want to encourage people to paddle with your group, and you want to encourage paddling safe, it might be an option. I think of a pfd as bare minimum standard equipment for any paddle, right up there with a paddle, that’s just me though.
pfd?
Our very informal group requires a PFD, wetsuit, and rescue practice before anyone can go out with us on Lake Superior. If someone doesn’t want to do any of those things, that’s cool if they want to go with us on an inland (warm, small) lake, but we figure it puts everyone else at too much risk on Lake Superior. My general policy is pretty libertarian: anyone can put themselves at risk, but it’s not fair to put other people at risk. That said, of course I’d help rescue anyone in trouble, no matter how thoughtless they’d been. How could you sit there and watch someone in trouble?
PFD, Assisted Rescue
There is a not uncommon category of newbie paddler who can’t execute a paddle float self-rescue, doesn’t want to wear the PFD because it is hot, bulky, you name it, and doesn’t find any of this to be an issue because they assume they won’t flip over. I’ve encountered this much more frequently on inland paddles, rivers and lakes, than near the ocean.
No small number of these paddlers tend to be older women with poor upper body strength, or men with what you could call a real notable center of gravity, and they almost always have boats with high decks and limited or no deck rigging. And that’s not counting the folks with a bad knee that won’t bend or a shoulder that can’t be stressed due to injury that, more often than not, you only find out about when they are halfway up and that is the next joint that has to bear weight. Kayaking is definately attracting a lot of middle aged people.
I am pretty strong for my size, an absolutely average height and weight female - I go to the gym off season and have mixed in regular weight work for years. Ordered a Unisex dry suit because, with winter layers on, the women’s size is questionably able to handle my shoulders. But I have found in practice that I can’t always get these folks back in their boat by myself. I’ve used a stirrup, which of course only works if it functions for the leg that can bend… or asked a second paddler to assist.
This is OK when you are practicing on a warm day in a local pond, but it would be an unecessary risk if the whole capsize happened on a controlled river within a short distance of a dam (not uncommon launch spots), or in quite cold and windy conditions where the time it took to get it all executed could severly increase the risk of hypothermia by the time you got everyone back to shore. We’ve had some not dissimilar spills happen in our local paddle group over the years - no insurmountable problems but enough to highlight the risk.
Paddlers who put together a trip are doing it to enjoy themselves, not spend the entire time having to look over their shoulder. The PFD won’t make a rescue unnecessary, but it well could make it faster, easier and more reliable.
You dont want to risk your life on them
First and foremost.
You don’t want to risk your own life trying to rescue them.
Trying to rescue someone not wearing a PFD is MUCH more dangerous. They get panicky and will grab at anyone trying to help them. In their panick, they could possibly drown you.
You don’t want to be put in that position, and that’s why you won’t paddle with them.
Wear one
Mainly because I know my own limitations.(being 63 and overweight are two of em:o))
I also wear a helmet while cycling because I’ve seen the damage sustained in an accident where the cyclist was only wearing the helmet God gave him.
I agree with Ness…You want to paddle with the group,you paddle by the groups rules…
Don’t want to…don’t …there’s enough water to go around.
PFDs
"Tell them to go home without an appropriate PFD" is the right answer, IMO. The other choice is for them to form their own group and hope that they don’t choose to paddle in your vicinity.
My experience with PFDs: Not only should everyone wear them, they need to fit, and they need to be tight. I once had to assist in the rescue of a man who’d had a heart attack while paddling. He capsized, was unconscious, and not breathing. The PFD was loose and came off of him while trying to get him out of the water and into a position to start CPR. It was all over after it came off - there was nothing to grab hold of. An experience I will never forget.