expert boat…
well I would argue that probably more “experts” paddle Explorers and Romanys which are dubbed as being confidence inspring and therefore better for novices in rough water; however, that does not make them any less capable and sophisticated in the hands of an expert. So less confidence inspring does not necessarily make it preferred for expert paddlers.
Of course it is not the boat but the paddler…I agree, but almost every true expert paddler I have ever paddled with is paddling an NDK. Better boat? No. Just making the distinction that confidence inspring is not necessarily a negative trait that should make you feel like you are paddling a beginners boat like a Pungo.
Matt
HUH
– Last Updated: Dec-14-09 8:17 PM EST –
SNIP
SNIP
almost every true expert paddler I have ever paddled with is paddling an NDK.
SNIP
Matt
Sheltered Life....Matt
almost every true expert paddler, Has paddled a NDK would be more acurate
Plenty of Expert paddlers in other brands
strange statement to be made by anyone.
Best Wishes
Roy
this is what I ment...not that Matt was the one that paddled a NDK
gjf12, you say…
– Last Updated: Dec-11-09 9:21 PM EST –
"That stability is only an advantage, giving superior feedback in rough water."
How does stability give superior feedback? That makes no sense to me.
Chazmaz
1990 Nordkapp HM, Ocean Cockpit
not tippy, just right
Better…or not??
FWIW…I’d paddled a Nordkapp HM for over 10 years before I ever tried an NDK Explorer. When I got in the Explorer for the first time and paddled off the beach (in a 1 foot chop), my first thought was…this is great! fast, stable, easy to turn, easy to roll–no wonder people like it! Then I got into rougher stuff…and I thought…why am I being tossed around like this? Doesn’t happen in my Nordkapp…
Flat water stability and ease of balance/control in rough water are not the same thing.
As for why experts (which I am not) use NDK boats, many reasons I’m sure, but 2 obvious ones are–when you’re coaching you want to have your attention on your students, not on your own balance, and many coaches own or work for retail businesses–and it’s a lot more sensible (and safer!) to sell Romanys/Explorers to beginner or intermediate paddlers than it is to sell Nordkapps. And, let’s face it, Nigel Dennis has been a great marketer, integrating all the aspects of the sport.
good points
all the way around…
This review will clear things up for anyone interested.
http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2007/01/valley-nordkapp-lv-test.html
Douglas Wilcox paddles a lot of open water and prefers his NordLV over his Rockpool Alaw for the way it handles the wind…
I think the NordLV, Alaw, Tiderace and NDKs are all very good kayaks, and I’m sure everyone posting here could handle anyone of them.
I usually cover 15 miles of open water and other coastal conditions so efficiency was at the top of my list for an open water kayak. The Nordlow is very good all around and does respond well to strokes and maneuvers, such as a stern rudder in clipodis.
Being out there with another kayaker with solid open water skills was more confidence inspiring than the kayaks themselves. After we practiced some rolling very relaxed and confident as opposed to the first few minutes.
On this trip the NordLV had the advantage punching out through the surf, but a little luck was needed to catch an open window and jump on it. I think most everyone here would have been fine in any number of kayaks.
The NLV is also quite fast. I finished 4th place in a race and only two race boats beat me by a several minuets and one Epic 18x just in front of me. We also paddled 20 miles the other day so it has been a very good all around kayak.
Wind Handling
I have yet to find a boat that handled wind better for me than my old Sirius S. I’m a light weight paddler 135lbs. I’ve been looking for a boat to replace it, that had more volume for tripping but still handle wind as well ; with no luck so far. So lets hear some suggestions.
Thanks
what “more responsive” means…
– Last Updated: Dec-12-09 5:49 PM EST –
The boat responds to input from the paddler more quickly and with less effort on the part of the paddler.
As noted above, among the positive attributes of the 'kapp LV is: "The Nordlow moves more quickly and smoothly through such conditions." The boxier bilge and greater volume in the ends of the Xcite provides room for error (in good part because the boat responds more slowly to paddler input -i.e is less responsive) and takes more effort to push the boat forward while tending to get knocked about a bit more than the rounder lower volume hull of the Nordlow.
Again one design is not superior to the other. While I love my Nordlow, I use my Romany for surfing and tideraces because of the headroom it provides.
chazmaz
You asked:
“How does stability give superior feedback? That makes no sense to me.”
If you have two 21" beam boats suitable for rough water, neither will be highly stable. Each can be quickly leaned. The boat with some chine can be leaned a bit further and still be within the range of secondary stability. So beyond the point where the round hull is on the way over, the chined hull continues to provide a bit of righting resistance that can be felt by the lower body, and reacted by the paddler.
Steve Maynard, John Carmody and
Mark Schoon are among the ‘expert’ paddlers with whom I’ve paddled who are not paddling NDK boats.
Of course among the other well regarded paddlers not paddling NDK are Douglas Wilcox and Gordon Brown.
There are many more…
“neither will be highly stable”
– Last Updated: Dec-12-09 6:29 PM EST –
Though 21" wide the TideRace Xcite is extraordinarily stable. The relatively flat bottom and slab sides make it feel like a much wider boat.
When I paddled an Xcite in lumpy seas, it felt like a SUV compared to the Nordlow, which feels like a sports car. There's nothing wrong with either...
Avocet
I haven’t paddled it but would suggest it among the many other options out there.
there are other
– Last Updated: Dec-12-09 7:24 AM EST –
more significant attributes between two kayaks of equal width that you continue to ignore. How it handles wind, following seas, and current are attributes that are an integral part of the kayak design that have a more significant impact in open water conditions. You asked what advantages a kayak like the Nordlow can have, and that's it.
The OP was more interested in a kayak that was both effecint to paddle and could handle open water. If you are on a 4 day paddle how a kayak handles wind and following seas is going to be much more important than a slight advantage on an extreme edge.
Another gripe someone had is the back deck isn't lower, but it's not a problem for me, as I don't need to lean all the way back, and I would not want a kayak that had no cargo room in the rear hull. So it's a matter of preferences for the intended use.
A typical day paddle for me (that I do once a week) is a 15 mile trip around an island with open water on the ocean, clapodis, current and wind. Two of the last three trips in the past month had 15 knots of wind and 2-3 knots of current for 4-8 miles of the trip. On the last 4 mile leg, going into the wind and some current is where the Nordlow has a real advantage to get back to the landing at the end of the day.
When you actually get out and paddle an Xcite I would be interested in your observations.
wind handling
– Last Updated: Dec-12-09 8:51 AM EST –
The Pintail is an excellent rough water boat that sits very low on the water and handles well in wind. If you weigh 135 lbs, you ought to be able fit in 40lbs of gear without too much difficulty in boat trim/displacement. From a former climber's perspective--that's plenty for a week's outing!
warning: long post!
I bought one in early September, so it’s been only 3 months now. I’ve hesitated adding to this discussion for several reasons including the brief time in the boat. I also am having some difficulty putting my observations into words as well as others here have, but I’ll give it a try. Just for reference I am 5’8 and 200 lbs. I have been paddling a plastic PH Capella for 4 years. I’ve paddled friend’s boats and tested several others over the past year searching for a new one; including: PH Cetus, Impex Cat 4, Capella 173, NDK Explorer, plastic Valley Avocet, a full size Nordkapp and WS Tempest 170. The Nordkapp LV stood out dramatically from these others. As always, these observations are mine and I may be crazy.
In three months I’ve had the boat out in a variety of conditions, including: 1 to 2 foot wind slop, clean 6 to 8 foot ocean swells, surfing 2-3 foot breaking waves, and a lumpy tide race east of Fisher’s Island in LI sound. I’ve paddled with winds up to 25 kts coming from every direction.
The boat definitely has less initial stability than all of the other boats I’ve paddled. However I agree with a previous post which said that the lack of initial stability translates into much finer control in conditions. The Nordlow feels like a coiled spring full of potential energy, like it is just waiting for you to tell it to do something. Paddler input is instantly rewarded with a crisp response. It reminds me of a high performance sports car with really tight suspension and steering, any tiny movement of the steering wheel and the car responds instantly, no sway, no slop, no delay. Exhilarating, but pay attention!
As far as I can tell, there basically is no secondary stability; it’ll edge over as far as you want to take it. Combine this with its very narrow ends and high rocker and the boat can be turned very fast. With some speed, aggressive edging and a solid low brace you can stand the Nordlow WAY up on edge and whip it around really quick for a 17 ½ foot boat.
On a 3 mile crossing from Stonington, Ct to Fisher’s Island, we had a 20 to 25 knot tail wind and surfed 3 foot swells all the way across. The boat was very well behaved. No sign of yaw from off angle waves, no difficulty keeping it on track. Counter intuitively, the lack of stability while sitting still on flat water translates to good behavior in random, confused waves. Those waves quietly move under the hull without affecting the boat’s equanimity or path.
Quartering headwinds will cause some minor weather cocking that is easily eliminated with a little skeg.
In larger ocean swells (6-8 ft) the boat again proved to be very well mannered; in fact, surfing steep, nearly-breaking 8 footers was one of the highlights of my kayaking career.
I can’t quite say the same for surfing smaller, breaking waves. In steep 2 -3 foot breaking waves I had some trouble keeping the nose out of the water. When the stern is lifted and the boat picks up speed down the wave, the narrow, needle-like bow wants to pearl. Much of that may be my lack of skill, I’m still trying to figure out the positioning and timing needed to surf a longboat. Still, I seem to surf better in the Explorer, Tempest and Avocet; all show less tendency to pearl in breaking surf than the Nordlow. It is fine and fun in smaller, breaking 1 to 2 foot waves.
It rolls very easily. Despite the fact that I’ve been rolling in the Capella for 4 years I find it much harder to roll than the LV. The Explorer rolled almost as easy for me as the LV.
The most obvious characteristic of the boat is its speed- it is fast! None of the boats mentioned responded as quickly and efficiently to a forward stroke; it jumps forward. Once at cruising speed it feels much easier to maintain the pace than most of the other boats. The Cetus felt pretty efficient at cruising speed as well but was nowhere near as quick or responsive (although it’ll easily carry a month’s worth of gear which the LV won’t.)
Overall my impression so far is that the boat requires more mental attention than the other boats I compared it to but the benefits are that it is faster and responds quicker than any of them. It also handles rough, confused seas and high winds at least as well as any of the other boats I’ve paddled. It is probably not the best choice for long-boat surfing or long distance camping but it is serviceable for those activities. I love the boat.
My observation …
is that most well known paddlers are paddling boats from their current sponsor, which is likely the best marketing strategy for the manufacturers.
Best,
~wetzool
9 out of 10?
- just kidding 
Nice write up. A boat I would probably enjoy spending some time in …
boats from their current sponsor
Exactly.
precisely
And more proof that it’s the paddler, not the boat. Our mentors can do it all in any boat. That’s what we need to aim for, instead of searching for that mythical BOAT that will allow us to do it all.
pintail
The Pintail handles wonderfully in wind for me. It sits right down in the water, and it’s balance is nearly unaffected by even very strong winds from any direction.
At 135# you’d certainly be able to pack 40-50 pounds of gear in it, but honestly, you’re going to have more trouble with packing space than with weight. The bow compartment has quite a bit of space, but the hatch is a 9" VCP, so you can only get small things in there.
The rear hatch is a nice big VCP oval, but has very little useable space because the hull depth is about 6-8" back there, and the skeg box takes up much of the area behind the hatch.
Team P&H Etc
– Last Updated: Dec-12-09 10:08 AM EST –
And I keep wondering if Valley is going to try and be as aggressive on this side of the pond, as well as some domestic manufacturers... P&H went out and aggressively courted a bunch of the better paddlers in this country, and voila many of them are paddling P&H boats as well as putting others into those boats. And it hasn't hurt P&H's own design improvements to have this kind of seat time in their craft.
NDK had the helm for a long time because other manufacturers hadn't really gotten the sponsorship thing going as aggressively, but that has changed. Now P&H is putting free boats into the hands of some pretty damned good paddlers, and it's that all over the place.
The good news is that my Vela, which had gotten some pretty odd looks when everyone was in an NDK boat, all of a sudden is a really apt boat for me. With the Explorer LV, I have one of the old trend and one of the new - without having had to buy any new boats. (Chuckle)