Nordkapp LV stability

Quite different

– Last Updated: Sep-22-09 12:45 PM EST –

Gordon Wilcox notes "Compared with the Nordkapp Jubilee, this boat is a completely new shape. The only dimension it shares with its namesake is overall width. It has much finer bow and stern sections."
-http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2007/01/valley-nordkapp-lv-test.html

Gordon also notes the rocker - which is more pronounced in the Nordlow than the full size 'kapp. Also Sea Kayker measured the Nordkapp LV as being slightly narrower than the Nordkapp H2O.

I was asking

– Last Updated: Sep-22-09 11:44 AM EST –

Nau if he had a Nordlow.. thus his name above the question.. when you use someone's name that indicates the questions or comments that follow are for them..


wilsoj already said he has a nordlow in the previous post.. and of course everyone knows that.. ;)

On another note, I find most people don't realize there is a difference between a Nord and LV, which was the point I was making. If you have to stay loose in the hip and pay constant attention to keep right on the edge, they will assume it has nothing to do with the kayak.







better answer quickly…
The mistake was understandable - I had myself not really noticed your question, sorry.



To answer you, no I do not have a Nordkapp LV. I have just paddled one a bit, and I like it. I did not find anything uncomfortable paddling it. But I also like the Anas Acuta, old Pintails and skin-on-frames. However what I like is not at all relevant - in my previous post I was just giving an example of how a Nordkapp LV could be categorized using what wilsoj2 had told us of his impressions.



A much better reference would be Doug Wilcox: he uses his Nordkapp LV as a photographic platform, in UK seas, with non-waterproof equipment costing far more than his boat (hence all those marvelous pictures). And Doug does not claim at all to be an exceptional paddler. Just that should make people think that stability is a personal issue, not a boat issue. Just have the boat that is right for you, your skills, and the conditions you are in and if the boat is too much for you don’t blame her!


that’s what I thought

– Last Updated: Sep-22-09 12:20 PM EST –

you were making general comments about a kayak you don't own, and people you haven't paddled with..

If you had bothered to read Douglas's review you would see that it identifies the exact point I was making about the secondary stability.

"However, as you edge an Alaw the boat becomes progressively stiffer and more secure feeling, as you edge the Nordkapp LV it just keeps going over smoothly until sploosh. There is no warning when you are just about at the limit of secondary stability."


"Hardcore rockhoppers should also consider the Rockpool for its heavier and stronger construction and in extreme conditions even experts appreciate secondary stability."


I have also noticed in another thread you blamed someone of pushing a P&H because they said the service was good, (which was the topic of the thead) and now that I'm tying to give an objective review of the kayak I own, and point out it's strongest and weakest points and the exact conditions (this is the topic of the thread) I'm being blamed for being a crap paddle, while you contribute only assumptions of someones skills or generalizations.





Yakwise, you are mistaken
and you misunderstood my posts - I did not comment anywhere on the Nordkapp LV itself (as you correctly point out I could not), I just said that all comments on stability are relative and depend on the commentator’s skills and physical configuration. That applies to any boat. So instead of someone blaming any boat as being “twitchy” or whatever, it would be more accurate for that someone to categorize the boat as “not for me given my current skills”.

Who is blaiming a boat?

– Last Updated: Sep-22-09 2:03 PM EST –

First, sorry to yakwise for missing what he was saying. I didn't catch that flow right.

For Nau, blaming a boat usually has pretty negative connotations. Like blaming a boat for dumping you in the water etc. I'm not seeing that here. I'm seeing that a number of decent paddlers have said that the boat is not a beginner's boat - including the boat's manufacturer. It is what it is, not bad or good.

If you looked at the number of Nordlows that came up for sale in the northeast after the first rush to them this last fall, it appears that a few people disregarded this advice including at least one we have met. There are only about 11 of them being actively paddled in the northeast last I knew, so a few being returned is significant.

It's great that a guy in the UK can use his as a photographic platform. But even if he isn't Nigel Foster's long lost brother, a few guys able to be very comfortable in that boat doesn't make it a boat for everyone. That seems to be what you are challenging here, and frankly it'd be more convincing if you picked up a Nordlow and took it out in some serious conditions. You are trying to make some assumptions second hand, and that works a lot better for a workhorse like the NDK Explorer than the Nordkapp family.

Nau
Sorry if it came across that way…



In my very first post I used the Explorer as a bench mark, and said what I thought the Nordlow was better at and what it was not as good at.



I do think the Nordlow is still underrated. And I agree that Douglas’s review puts it in much better context. In fact you see him surfing down those 8 foot waves and it’s easy to miss that part about the secondary. Still, I uderstand that mentioning one flaw can be taken out of context. I wasn’t trying to do that.



I paddled a Q boat before this so I was used to the stability, but a lot of good paddlers are used to a different design and can’t manage the Nordlow at all on a test run.



Celia, thanks, I guess the name “Nau” was easy to miss.



I would also like another 16’ kayak. Even the Nordlow at 17’8’’ is maneuverable but can be a workout to rotate around in the surf zone. I would also like a more stable platform for some of the same reasons, including back deck rescues, but don’t want to be pushing around a barge all day either.


Objective stability info
"all appreciations of stability are personal"



However, Sea Kayaker provides stability graphs which do give some ‘objective’ sense of the boat’s stability. Here are the Explorer and the Nordkapp LV graphs:

Why I sold my Nordlow!
I agree with most of what Celia has said about this boat. I owned one for 2 months and paddled it maybe 20 times in all conditions. I was perfectly comfortable in 5’ swells, strong winds and white caps. I loved rolling it, it almost rolled itself. I surfed it once and almost needed a CHANGE OF PANTS it was that exciting. I capsized unexpectedly once which was so quick and unexpected that I wound up with a mouthful of salt water and hardly time to hold my breath. My roll at that point failed and I accepted a T rescue. Talk about stability, the boat full of water in the surf zone was impossible for me to pump out myself without rafting up. All of this I loved and thought no worse of the boat-yes you do need to pay attention and no you may not get any warning when she wants to dump you. What finally convinced me that this boat was not for me was the following: Lumpy water, quartering or beam seas no more than 1 to 2 footers or confused water kept my hips constantly shifting left to right. After a couple of hours of what most would pronounce fairly mild conditions my lower back became fatiqued and the next couple of days felt more sore and trashed than I ever did in my Explorer. I’m 70 and love the rough water the rougher the better, but dealing with the small stuff just knocked me off my game. Life is too short to wait for me to grow into such a challenging boat, not that there is anything wrong with that for someone else.

Curious About Nord LV
Leaving aside all of the stuff about secondary stability and edges, etc. in this thread and thinking about your sensations while paddling. Is one reason you like the Nord LV is that the ease with which it will heel over also means it is easy to heel back so you feel no matter how far it goes over you can bring it back and without much work? Does this give you a sense of dancing on the water where the boat may do all sorts of things, but if you stay centered all is fine? In the beginning did you find it twitchy and once you relaxed and let it dance that went away? I ask because have often wondered if some folks say a boat is twitchy because they are constantly chasing it in an effort to “control” it instead of relaxing and letting it dance. Almost seems to be two different mindsets. those that want to impose order and stability and those who are willing to go with the flow. Just curious about your experience in it from a “practical” viewpoint.

Yakwise and Celia
Yakwise, no problem - I agree with you.



Celia, sorry but I have the feeling you are still missing my point, which has nothing to do with the Nordkapp LV itself. I am just objecting to boats being categorized based on “skill level dependent” personal impressions (without providing one’s skill level), augmented from time to time by sweeping generalizations and unsupported hearsay (which is what got me started in the first place, against my better judgment).



To answer your points, that some people choose to return their boats only tells me that, personal preferences apart, they likely were not up to it, i.e. their skill level was not yet appropriate for that specific boat or the conditions they paddled it in. On the other hand, that someone uses it as a photographic platform risking thousands of pounds of equipment (a hard fact) tells me that it must be far away from a rounded racing hull - skill level notwithstanding - and rules out the possibility of an intrinsically bad hull, which nobody suggested anyway. So the boat returns you mention were more than likely due to inappropriate skill levels, again personal preferences apart. What were really those skills is unknown and not really accurately describable, so the info has very little use (apart from better try the boat yourself).



As for “blaming”, it is only about semantics. Calling a boat for example “demanding” is only by reference to a specific paddler, so it makes no real practical sense unless you are that paddler, and certainly has no absolute value. The stability graphs posted by wilsoj2 above emphasize the point: for a given boat with given mechanical characteristics, some will find that boat demanding while others will find it boring - it is personal. So better to qualify boats by level of expected abilities, as most manufacturers do. It’s not perfect, but it’s way more informative for everyone than for example an undisclosed mediocre paddler calling a boat unstable - or an exceptional paddler calling a boat boring!



This is why I highlighted wilsoj2’s contribution: a frame of reference and an honest comparison and skill assessment made for useful information. Within that frame of reference, it led to a possible description that spoke to Yakwise: “for intermediate to advanced paddlers” and that seemed to fit with the manufacturer’s description. Of course, now, what does intermediate actually mean…



So to describe one’s experience it would be much better to describe one’s skill level and admit as the case may be “I was not up to it” or “it pushed my limits” up to the logical conclusion that “it is for better paddlers than me”. It would be nice if it was ever possible to convey accurately in writing one’s skill level and personal characteristics, and comment “too much / great / boring for me in such and such conditions”.



Finally, nobody ever suggested that any boat could be suitable for everyone. As far as I know, the goal is still to enjoy ourselves, which we can only do with boats we can honestly handle, or boats that push us to higher skill levels, depending on our own preferences… This is why I feel that focusing on actually usable information is key.

good questions

– Last Updated: Sep-22-09 10:43 PM EST –

I also agree with several other posters with how well it does handle, so it's not like us Nord LV owners are in complete disagreement.

"Is one reason you like the Nord LV is that the ease with which it will heel over also means it is easy to heel back so you feel no matter how far it goes over you can bring it back and without much work?"

That's one of the reasons I purchased it. I liked how far it could go over and easily brace back up. I wanted to improve my bracing at a more complete range. In the surf I can high brace and side surf just about anything. The LV gets an A+ for high bracing in the surf. It's real easy to go from a high to low brace, or just keep a high brace and bring it all the way back up to get out of the wave. In flat water when my elbow gets past the water, I'll just brace back up when my body hits the water. I find that only a very minor brace is ever needed to maintain stability. It's very rare when I get caught off guard. Low bracing in the surf can roll over on you because the rounded hull.

"Does this give you a sense of dancing on the water where the boat may do all sorts of things, but if you stay centered all is fine?"

Yes. In most conditions all I do is paddle over on edge. It doesn't track like an 18', it kind of rolls along with each wave. If you get hit by a beam wave that washes over the deck, you don't feel it. It's a real loose edge that requires a loose hip. There isn't a lot of primary so its kind of loose there as well. At first I was pitching back over to the other side, but the more I'm used to it the more it's over on one edge loose and slippery, with the bearing shifting with the waves, yet it maintains a true course.

On the second day I took it out in 30 knot winds on the harbor. When all hell was breaking loose with more clipodis than I'd ever been in, it felt like it was on dead still water. It's not that sable with it's on a duck pond. In some shallower water where the waves stood up more I did notice the keel catching some junk and wasn't used to it.





"In the beginning did you find it twitchy and once you relaxed and let it dance that went away?"

I didn't ever find it twitchy. It the ocean it rolls with larger beam waves so it took some adjustments from the greenland style kayak I had. But if there are several waves all converging and you have no idea which way you will get rocked, it's brilliant.

"I ask because have often wondered if some folks say a boat is twitchy because they are constantly chasing it in an effort to "control" it instead of relaxing and letting it dance."

I never said the Nordlow was twitchy. In fact I don't recall any NL owners in this thread say it's twitchy. If something does catch you off guard it's very sudden.It does have a slight keel, and when you bring it down and some counter wave or strong counter current catches it just right, you just stay loose, and regain your original edge. I hardly ever notice it anymore, it just has a loose heal. It took me a while to trust it's transparency, because waves don't catch it the way they would with a harder chine.

"Almost seems to be two different mindsets. those that want to impose order and stability and those who are willing to go with the flow. Just curious about your experience in it from a "practical" viewpoint."

I don't mind the flowing transparent ride. It's very efficient kayak to paddle. It can turn very well on edge, almost like a play boat but not quite. It tracks really well in high wind. In current and tide races it is responsive. Even going backwards in 6 knots of current it edges well, but trying to keep an edge and an angle while ferrying backwards, any kayak is a challenge to keep from peeling out, and if there are other waves, it keeps a loose edge.

My bow rudder, slip draw, and draw stokes are really good, with the shaft all the over, elbows in, and I use them in all kinds of conditions, however there isn't much room for error. My foam bulk head and thigh braces are within an 1/8 of an inch. Just the slightest adjustment with the seat or thigh braces makes a huge difference. (I roll and scull for support other kayaks without bothering with foot braces)

I can edge it over pretty well with different strokes and rudders, but not up on it's side.

The only time I would like more stability is when I'm being evaluated. I'm sure there there are some people who could get it further on edge for some maneuvers , but I could probably brace and roll better with it in the surf.

When paddling out through 4' surf and get caught by a breaker just right, I don't lay as far forward or bring the paddle blade all the way to the bow, because it will require some kind of brace. My last kayak didn't matter how it landed or pushed through breakers, it didn't need a brace.

Also, the Nordlow J lean uses the lowest part of the spine, more so than the Q boat which should be about like the AA.

After a 10 or 15 mile paddle if you don't feel like edging at all, the skeg works beautifully in any conditions.

I would like to get it out in more that what I have so far, 4' seas and 20 knot winds, but not in any big rush.





OK

– Last Updated: Sep-23-09 6:18 AM EST –

The stability graphs are, yes, concrete which is why wilsoj2 (my husband) put them in.

As to asking for skill level, if you look at wilsoj2's profile you'll see that he has a background and training that the BCU would generally consider intermediate or towards it. So his experience and the manufacturer's own description line up resonably well. Seems to me that should help close a question.

You don't have a profile posted, nor did you indicate skill level in the above thread that I caught. If you want to argue that revealing skill level is important to these discussions, you may want to reveal your own. Granted I don't have anything in my profile, but then again over time I've paddled with or in the environs of some here so they know my lack of talent.

PS: one last observation
One aspect I did notice in some confused water is that the NordLV doesn’t lock in on the forward stroke when heeling like any other kayak I’ve paddled. Normally, with other kayaks with flatter bottom, when you are edging and heeled over and hit that forward stroke you can use the bottom of the kayak as an edge also and be nice and locked in for any kind of wave action, no matter where it hits you. With the NordLV you don’t have that advantage with the keel and requires another twist back towards the blade in the water. That’s why it’s a very loose, transparent edge and you need loose hips.



You would have to paddle it certain conditions to notice this.



It has it’s advantages and disadvantages. The edge is transparent and doesn’t catch beam waves.






To conclude…
Celia, my skill level would have been required only if I had given my personal impressions of paddling that boat, which I did not (I made a side comment, but said it was irrelevant). My argument was purely let’s not tar a boat with a moniker (from “barge” to “coffin”) that might discourage others from trying it when that moniker comes from a purely personal appreciation dependent on many factors that may or may not be applicable to those others.



Good paddling! It was fun but I better do a bit more work today…

Nau,
I think people understand what you are saying, and Celia did agree with you that in general it’s not good to blame the kayak. As far as your assessment that if someone doesn’t appreciate some of the attributes of this particular kayak, then they are simply not skilled enough and need a beginner kayak, I would disagree. An expert may not like what the kayak has to offer for their particular application. For another very skilled kayaker the NordLV may be just what they are looking for. You are tying to divide us into skilled and unskilled, while a more skilled paddler may say “not for me”.



It takes a long review to detail how this kayak responds to each condition.



For me, it’s close the perfect day boat. At the top of my list is efficiency. I paddle all kinds of conditons at least once a week and have no shoulder or joint issues from the kayak. I’ve said many times it’s a good all around kayak that does 90% really well.



I’ve paddled both Nordkapps and Greenland stye and still undecided on which I prefer.




Yakwise, we agree
"As far as your assessment that if someone doesn’t appreciate some of the attributes of this particular kayak, then they are simply not skilled enough and need a beginner kayak, I would disagree."



Yakwise I fully agree with you and it was not my intent to convey such impression - it is why I mentioned a few times “personal preferences apart”. At the limit, very proficient paddlers can paddle anything - it does not mean they will like everything. They also are unlikely to be too much concerned with the type of discussion we just had (and prefer going paddling instead!)



That will be true at any level: amongst the boats that people at that level can paddle with reasonable confidence, some will be preferred and others disliked, for many reasons many of them having to do with the interaction paddler body / hull characteristics.



In the end, it’s all too personal and trying to classify boats is a bit like chasing a rainbow. There might be something cultural to it too: did you notice that the same post on UK Rivers attracted only 2 answers (none from me…), and that the original gnarlydog post in Australia none? Funny…



Have a great day!



http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55122&sid=a18329f17b43b5ce786d1262a6367faf

http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/

Not always about skill
Your experience of of the stability is not only dependent of your skill level. Your weight and torso length also contributes a great deal. With my 140 pounds in the LV it felt very relaxed.



As for standing up, I believe that is a good measure of skill level. I know people who can stand up in a racing K1. In that case, it doesn’t say anything about the boats stability.

?
Either I am misreading or you are missing a not in your post. Or you are arguing that ability to stand up predicts skill in bracing, handing tidal current or good judgement in a rescue scenario…

just the balance skill
I suspect he meant that it takes skill (in the form of good balance and knowing your boat) to stand but he didn’t seem to imply that having such skill meant you must therefor have all the other skills.