Well both
I’m mainly trying to point out that a Nordcapp Low volume won’t be much “tippier” for a light paddler than an Explorer for a heavy one. But yes, I think having the maximum at a larger angle of heel is a positive attribute. I also suspect it correlates more with what most people perceive as good secondary stability.
Disagree
– Last Updated: Sep-28-09 11:51 AM EST –
What a lot of people mean by good secondary stability is not only how far over the boat's balance point is, but also the likelihood that the boat will resist capsizing at that point. In that case, stability meaning literally staying stable at that point. You may disagree with this meaning, but it is a pretty common one.
The Nordlow will not compare to boats like an Explorer or an Aquanaut in this characteristic because it won't stop so easily. The lesser resistance to capsize will have it going over, regardless of where that balance point lies.
This has been said a number of times in this thread, in fact one of the better descriptions of the feeling is yakwise's that the stability is transparent, and sometimes it just slips away. Whatever anyone may say about the Explorer, you're unlikely to hear that kind of terminology. You know when you hit it.
I wonder if you've ever paddled an Explorer, at least in conditions. Your responses seem like you haven't, though your profile does list a Tempest 165 which has a quite distinct hang point. It's also unclear if you have any particular seat time in the poly Nordkapp which is your "Aussie kayak"?
I suspect that time will make these curves more real.
Thanks
– Last Updated: Sep-28-09 11:14 AM EST –
I get the feeling. :-)
Despite usually having a roll these days etc, I still take the Explorer LV out for major questionable stuff or where potential rescues could develop well offshore. It's just easier not to have to be paying attention to boat management.
The old shoes do fit comfy.
Would anyone say the nordkapps are
tender like a Necky LookshaII.
“To us, it’s a concept boat,”
– Last Updated: Sep-29-09 7:38 AM EST –
Never having been in a Looksha II, I can't answer the question, but can add some possibly useful info:
"To us, it's a concept boat, something you learn from then change to a more forgiving form. Concept cars developed by automobile companies are not available to the public, but our concept kayak is."
-Mike Neckar
http://www.quintanna.com/mtnsports/seakayaker/kykrvw_1.html#L2
"Speed, our reviewers agreed, was the Looksha II's raison d'être..."
From reading the review and Mike Neckar's statement it seems as if the intent of the Looksha II was different from a Nordkapp and might fall closer to the Rapier?
Well, let’s not get personal
– Last Updated: Sep-28-09 10:08 PM EST –
I'm not expressing any opinions one way or another on which is are better kayaks, Explorers vs. Nordcapps. It's all up to the paddler. You might want to check out the Mariner Kayaks FAQ on primary and secondary stability. "Looking at the static stability graphs I would define a kayak with good secondary stability as one whose stability curves show a relatively shallow angle off of zero (so you don't have to put a lot of energy into leaning it) but which has the point of maximum stability (the top of the curve) at a greater angle of lean (and maybe, but not necessarily, at a higher maximum point) than a kayak with less "secondary" stability."
OK - apples and oranges
– Last Updated: Sep-29-09 9:52 AM EST –
You are talking about pure degrees of heel from a chart, not accounting for resistance to capsize or what happens when you are in the boat at that stability point (seat time). That is different from what some others here are talking about.
This stuff is hardly a knock either of the boats mentioned. Else there wouldn't be one of each in the basement.
BTW, what is this aussie kayak that is a poly Nordkapp? Sisson (sp?) has produced a model in New Zealand I think, based on a very old Nordie mold that lacks the tweaks of the last decade or so which resulted in versions like the Jubilee and the LV. But I thought that their boats were all composite, and the stern chopped to add a rudder. Are these boats available in poly now?
4th place
My Nordlow finished 4th place in the kayak part of a sprint triathlon this weekend. (3 mile kayak, 8 mile bike, 4 mile run) I finished 12th over all, so that was great for me.
Out of 300 kayaks the only ones to beat me were real race kayaks. My Nordlow managed to finish ahead of all the Epics and whatnot. A real stiff head wind helped take a knot or two off everyone, so that probably helped.
Like I said the Nordlow is a great all around kayak.
I’ll be doing my L3 IDW in two days in it, continue with L4 training, and romp around in plenty of rough stuff.
Poor old me in my Nordlow… you experts have fun on the internet!
Congrats!
– Last Updated: Sep-29-09 10:17 AM EST –
I don't recall anyone saying the boat wasn't fast... but you don't get results like that without being a darned good paddler as well. It must have felt great.
Good luck on the L3. Is this ACA or BCU? The alphabets are getting fairly confusing to me by now, especially with the ACA changing a couple of years ago to close to old BCU then the BCU changing that. All I have straight at the L3 level is that it is likely anyone going for a new BCU L3 is likely someone who already holds an old L3, because of what still has to be worked out with the newest changes.
"Poor old me in my Nordlow"
I was in my Nordlow on Sunday, having spent a lot of time in my Romany lately, and was reminded what a fun, fast, and responsive boat it is!
Congratulations on your finish. The Nordlow maybe fast, but to do that well you have to be a very good paddler.
Good luck on your L3 and 4. Last I knew the BCU had not articualted the new syllabus for L3. Many of the folk with whom I’ve spoken have done the L2 transfer module.
Different Strokes
This picture (and more) was taken from a Nordkap LV with my paddle tucked under my arm (and fully out of the water).
http://www.paddling.net/photography/Images/photo541md.jpg
I think it is fair to say that the Nordkapp LV is not a great photography platform but it is a fast fun boat.
I have noted a couple of people doing as I did and getting a NK LV because we loved our traditional SOF but realized they weren’t as capable/fast/comfortable… as a more modern glass boat (all hail the skeg and dry hatches).
However while I love my Nordkapp LV, if I was responsible for safeguarding others I would choose a more forgiving platform with a stronger secondary.
That said playing in the big confused waters off sandbars is like ballet. I chose a lithe graceful partner who, though on occasion might dump me on my head (all hail the effortless roll), is such a joy to dance with I forgive her foibles while I revel in the overall experience.
To back up my comments I do own an LV. I pretty much paddle it exclusively these days. I have no BCU/ACA/formal certifications (well that one from the “special hospital” but let’s not go there).
From the sounds of it I also have much less experience than most of the people persecuting this discussion. I feel I can say there is probably no way I could stand up in the boat or even do one of those climb on the back and get back in rescues without some one holding the boat from rolling like a log (all hail that roll again).
But I do have a certifiable ear to ear grin and can often be found singing happy songs while dancing in the waves like a very silly boy. I love my Nordkapp LV and though it is not for everybody, it is a joyful lively boat that brings me great pleasure and instills confidence that allows me to venture out into water that really gets and holds my attention (no hands off the paddle pictures in that kind of water though).
Back to the boat
thanks!
I wasn’t out there to compete with anyone and really didn’t expect to get 4th in kayaking. It was a lot of fun and I’m glad I slowed down in the final run as much as I did.
I’m actually taking the L3 ACA ICW for coastal kayaking which is the IDW and ICE in one. The L3 is for teaching in more sheltered area with limited current.
As far as how it compares to BCU L3 I think it depends on the instructor. I had Ben Lawry for L3 ACA training. And my instructor is an L5 IT who will expect flawless technique, while others might be more flexable.
I may only get L1 or L2 certification this time and have to make improvements.
Glad you
had a great weekend with your Nordlow also!
I usually paddle in the back of the group! But use a lot of good technique in wind and current so I just did that to plow through a fast 3 miles.
I’ve been assisting with some local classes (mostly intro) and helped over 100 first time kayakers this summer, so I’m just doing the ACA stuff because it’s required for the program I help out with.
The mini triathlon might also interest more runners and bikers to pick up kayaking.
great read
– Last Updated: Sep-29-09 2:15 PM EST –
Bob! lol.. that's about how I feel about mine!
If you paddled a SOF you developed some good balance skills there. I paddled the Q boat that helped me a lot.
I don't have any open water instructions, but isn't that what a good roll is for?
As far as my assessment of the kayak, I tried to give specific details about the design of the kayak from my experience and and less about my ego.
You have a nice way of expressing yourself.
Darn that responsibility thing
– Last Updated: Sep-29-09 3:57 PM EST –
Love the comments about the Nordlow too. What little time I've gotten in it leaves me feeling that even if my husband ever wanted to swap it out I'd lobby to hang onto it for a while longer and pad it as needed for me. At least long enough to work out a good relationship.
But darn - that part about being responsible for others - so maybe I can't make a fool of myself in a canoe until I can paddle it straight. :-)
As to yakwise and the L3 thing - any cert means that you were able to stay calm and relaxed under observation. Whatever you manage is likely better than the last assessment I tried (BCU). I just came off the beach in anything but a stellar mind set.
Different Perspective
"I have noted a couple of people doing as I did and getting a NK LV because we loved our traditional SOF"
I believe paddling a SOF causes one to have a rather different perspective on the terms stability, tender, and responsive. For example, look at the stability curves for the Tahe Greenland compared to the Nord LV. Some SOF folks call the Greenland a stable boat.
My other boat is …
I am pretty new at all this but I have progressed through several different boats fairly quickly leading up to building a 1935 Sisimuit replica with Brian Schulz (A fantastic vacation that ends, unbelievably enough, with you owning an incredible boat and paddle).
http://www.capefalconkayak.com/1935sisimuit.html
The Sisimuit has a fixed skeg but weathercocks. There has been many an extended paddle in wind and waves where I would dream of one day owning a fast boat that has the alive feel of the Sisimuit but has a few niceties like a adjustable skeg, hatches, was easy to empty, and weighed 25 pounds.
Ok the 25 pound bit is really asking for the world, and nothing has the alive feel of a good skin on frame, but the Nordkapp LV comes damn close (the new boats are pretty light if you take the hatch covers off).
In the Nordkapp LV am I “solid on the edge”? No not really, I ocassionally “fall in” but again “all hail the effortless roll” ( I am lucky to be fairly flexible, and rolling for me is effortless).
Do I paddle for miles on end holding an edge? Hell no! Valley puts this great new invention on the LV called a Skeg. When used appropriately it works great to balance the boat in conditions. I use it without guilt, remorse, or the worrying feeling that I need to stand much closer to the urinal than other kayakers.
As for responsibility for others. I need to clarify that a little bit. I paddle with my family, 2 early teens and my wife, and I take my responsibility to be able to take care of them on the water very seriously. That is why I want to be in a boat that is fast enough, maneuverable enough, and capable in conditions to allow me to be able to get to them wherever they might get to, paddle against the tide (or tow against the tide) or get out into the chop to put some one back in to a boat.
I have owned a poly Capella, I own a glass Avocet, I still paddle my Sisimuit whenever I am allowed (my family has fallen in love with that boat), and I have an older barrel shaped Jackson Hero white water boat. I paddle all different kinds of water but the LV is the boat I paddle the most (excluding whitewater).
Remember if it isn’t fun why do it?
And now if you will excuse me I have the day off and the Nantahala is calling my name!
Nordkapp from Downumder
– Last Updated: Oct-01-09 11:42 AM EST –
The only Nordkapps that I know of which are produced Downunder are the Sisson 'kapps: http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/nordkapp.htm
Back from the…
I paddled with Yakwise recently (without realizing who he was till I saw the Pic I took of him surfing in his profile) and I think I need to add a little something to the Tippy Canoe and Nordkapp LV too discussion.
If you have a Nordkapp LV with the plastic seat (most of you will) you really need to lower the seat.
To repeat, Lower that Damn plastic abomination!
According to what I gleaned from Doug Wilcox (Seakayakphoto.com). The Nordkapp LV originally had the older fibeglass seat which was significantly lower than the later plastic seats (I have an 07 which I believe has a seat different than later seats).
When he originally tested an early demo boat he loved it and promptly ordered one for himself. The boat he received had the later plastic seat which he said was higher and negatively effected the stability.
I lowered my seat twice. first just a bit with a couple of washers between the seat and coaming mount. This was a small difference but was fairly noticeable playing in the Tybee triangle. So when I got home I pulled the seat and trimmed the foam and plastic to allow it to go lower. Then I added additional spacer material and longer bolts and took it to the Triangle again and it was dramatically better. Much more solid (dare I say locked in) secondary and significantly less unsure feeling primary.
It is different enough for Yakwise to notice it from his boat while we were playing in 4+ off Folly (where his profile picture was taken). Unfortunately due to height/leg differences he was not able to try my boat that day but I bet his seat is lower when we paddle again.
BTW Be careful to pad the plastic or it will wear through the fiberglass. I used inertubes (all I had @ the time).
I plan on tossing the plastic and going foam this winter.
Enjoy and keep smiling as you paddle.