Northstar Trillium - looking for comments, owners

Advice
#21

Well kattenbo it’s fun to read your thoughts…you are a thoughtful test paddler. The new Northstars seem to all be set up for sitting so that test paddlers don’t freak out.

If the Kee 15 is not your boat then I doubt you’ll like the Hemlock Peregrine or Kestrel or Colden Nomad because they are all lake boats and very similar to Kee 15…not very good for freestyle type playing around. Just FYI I had a Northstar solo and hated it…too much skin friction, too much muscle required at beginning of stroke…I much prefer a Peregrine or Merlin II or Kee 15.

I think you may like the Swift Osprey. It’s very playful and quick and maneuverable and the bow always feels free…the one downside to the boat is that it is hard to control in a strong quartering tailwind, but I think most Osprey owners love their boats. Don’t give up on the Shearwater…it is way way more maneuverable that a Kee 15 or Peregrine or Nomad, it just gives up some cruise speed but it’s still easy to paddle and free on the water, and it’s great on windy days. I think Osprey and Shearwater may offer the feel and versatility that you are after.

#22

Have you measured your speed with known distance and gps. ? When going from big boat to little boat there are many psychological factors at play.
Your skin friction may actually be less in smaller boat
If you are on the East side of Sebago you’re welcome to try a Nomad and a Wildfire. That’s where I am

#23

@chicago_paddler : Thanks for the comment - plowing is a good word. Northstar has located a gentleman who has both the Northwind Solo and a Phoenix within a reasonable driving distance, so I’m working out a time for a test paddle. The comments in the thread are mixed on the Solo, so I’ll be interested to try it out.

@timburris : Looks like there may be an opportunity to try a Nomad if I can get a time with kayamedic. Couple of folks have mentioned it as you commented. I’ve done a little reading on the Starfire - not sure if it’s a best match for where I actually paddle (as opposed to where I picture myself paddling when I’m starring in that movie in my head). I’ll take another look.

@TomL : thanks for the encouragement. I’ve put the Osprey back on the list (which is getting longer, not shorter). I’m (re)learning that reaction to a new boat is based a lot on prior experience with other boats - so I’m adjusting a bit as I try more of the dedicated solos. I’ll let y’all know how the Northwind Solo impacts that adjustment. I’ve see other comments about the Osprey in wind, so I’m hoping for a bit of a blow when I try it.

@kayamedic : I measured speed in the Kee 15, but only for a very short distance. Without trying for speed (I just turned on the app while I was trying the boat), averaged a moving speed of 2.5 knots on flat water with a a max of 3.2 knots. I didn’t turn it on at all for the Trillium, I couldn’t assume my normal kneeling position, so it wouldn’t have been useful. For comparison, in the Malecite I did 3NM at an average speed of 3KTs with a max of 5KTs (that last bit was a current assisted boost at a squeeze point in the river - no credit to the paddler).

@kayamedic : Thanks for the offer to try out the Nomad and Wildfire - really appreciated. I’m an easy distance to Sebago (that’s where I tried the Trillium) coming up from MA just south of the NH border on the coast. How do we connect to set something up?

#24

Any of the boats you are looking at are great, although I’m not sure about carrying a dog. I’m a little bigger than you (5’10", 225 lbs.), also kneel and paddle with a single blade. I have a composite Wildfire (symmetrical 2.5" rocker) and a Royalex YS Solo (asymmetrical 2.5"/1.5" rocker). Some would say that I am at the high end of the weight range for these boats, but I have never had a problem. I also have the long and the short seat drops, and to me they paddle like different boats at the different seat heights. I’ll bet you would have liked the Trillium more if it had the short seat drops (higher seat) so you were able to kneel. Just something else to consider…

Good luck in your search. No matter what you decide on, it sounds like you will have a great boat. If I was going for something a little bigger, I’d go for the Osprey or SRT.

#25

Quick update. Search is temporarily slowed (I’m out of town for a week), but I’m still hoping for trials of NS Phoenix and Northwind Solo, Nomad and Wildfire. Will also probably try a Swift Osprey. Hoping for maybe next week if I can make the connections.

Haven’t found a nearby source/owner for Hemlocks - anyone have info for East Coast? Southern ME, VT, NH, MA, CT, RI, Eastern NY, NJ, Eastern PA?

Thanks in advance.

#26

I’ve noticed that nobody has suggested the Bell Magic, is that because of carrying a dog sometimes, the size of the paddler, or the desire for maneuverability? I realize that the narrow gunwales may create issues for the dog.

It responds well to both the single blade and double blade

At 5’6", 160 lbs and never carrying a dog, I realize that my size is much different that the OP, but I find my Magic quite acceptably maneuverable and stable when sitting or kneeling, but maybe that’s because at my smaller size, I sit a bit higher on the water than the larger paddlers.

Maybe this is a hair brained suggestion, but that’s what came to mind to me.

I definitely attain higher speeds more easily in my Magic than my Yellowstone Solo (whether carbon or royalex).

If the Hemlock Kestrel is under consideration, also keep a lookout for a Curtis Vagabond or Lady Bug. The Vagabond has much wider gunwales in front of the seat than the Kestrel or Lady Bug, which may be a boon for carrying a dog.

Enjoy the search.

#27

There is a used Vagabond on the pnet classified ads right now!

Hey kattenbo, if you call Dave Curtis at Hemlock canoe he may well be able to tell you where you might find a boat to test paddle.

#28

@Yanoer : I’m looking at Hemlocks, by Dave Curtis, and Northstar by Ted Bell so have them covered. Being a bit arbitrary (there are sooo many choices) and with this being my 1st Solo, I’m probably going to stay with current models. Having said that, if I happen across an opportunity, I’ll certainly look at out of production boats.

@TomL : Thanks - great minds, etc. I talked to Dave Curtis a week ago and he was going to look for someone in the area. He was also about to be out of town, so I haven’t heard back. I’ll be following up next week. If there isn’t anyone close, there might be a road trip in my future.

#29

Update from the search…good weekend.

Thanks to the help from Northstar, I was able to try two Northstar solos on Saturday…the Phoenix (14’6", symmetric hull with 2.5" rocker bow and stern) and the Northwind Solo (15’6" asymmetric hull with 2.5" bow and 1.5" stern rocker) - full specs at http://northstarcanoes.com.

The Phoenix is described primarily as a river boat that does well on lakes, while the NW Solo is described as a lake boat that does well on rivers. I got to try them on a moderate sized pond in a light wind with a couple of noticeable but not intense gusts. It was a bit chilly (about 36 degrees F), but sunny and comfortable in the gear I had on. I was able to take both boats out twice - started with the Phoenix, then the NW Solo, then repeated.

Both boats looked good - solidly built. I really liked the wood trim on the Solo - the contrasting wood in the laminate is really pretty.

Both boats were comfortable to paddle, more so the second time I was in each. The Phoenix was quicker to go on edge, while I was more comfortable keeping the NW Solo balanced for longer periods with both knees to the right of the centerline. The Phoenix was more reactive to each stroke, tending to wander a bit more on power forward strokes. While some (a lot?) of that was the paddler, not the boat (I need to crisp up my “J”s), it is designed to be quick turning, so requires a bit more concentration/practice to get it to really track. It’s also quicker to shift around obstacles, with the immediate response to draws and bow steering strokes you’d expect in a river boat. The NW Solo has a lot more glide, and it feels like I can put more power under control in the forward stroke. It’s very responsive when leaned, but isn’t as quick to turn when flat. The pond wasn’t that large, but I could sense that it will cover a lot of water smoothly without consuming a lot of energy, and will be nicely playful with that same bit of concentration/practice. No surprise with any of this - it’s each boat doing what it was designed to do, and doing it very well.

Of the five solo boats I’ve tried (Wenonah Prism, Swift Keewaydin 15, Northstar Trillium, Northstar Phoenix and Northstar Northwind Solo), I’m currently favoring the NW Solo, followed by the Kee 15. I think the NW Solo fits the profile of what I’m looking for best of the group. I also suspect it will handle 40 pounds of walking-around ballast (Iain the boat dog) more gracefully.

Next up: I’m trying the Trillium a second time - I had to sit low the first time, so I’m see how it is when I’m kneeling to give it a fairer shot - and I have two other boats to try, all on this coming Friday, so we’ll see if anything changes.

One side note: I finding these tryouts have not only let me get a feel for the boats, but have also been really (tremendously) helpful in clarifying what I’m looking for in a boat. I’ve got a much more tactile sense for what I’m looking for and it’s really useful And this applies not only to paddling, but to the whole feeling - for example, I’m finding that I personally like the aesthetics of a slightly longer, shallower hull over a shorter, deeper hull - it fits the movie in my mind (which doesn’t involve a lot of high class rapids) better.

Keith

#30

Looking forward to hearing your comments after your next round of test paddles. If you like the look and feel of the Northstar solo then I think you should try a Hemlock Peregrine if you can. All of the boats you are looking at are very fine boats.

#31

@TomL - any particular reasons to prefer the Hemlock Peregrine over the Northstar NW Solo?

Looking at the specs, the Peregrine is about 0.5" shallower, a little narrower (1.5") at max width but the same at gunwales and 4" waterline, and the keel is a bit straighter (0.5" less rocker in bow, 0.25" less in stern). I expect it will track a bit better and have a bit more glide, but be a little stiffer to turn flat.

I’m still waiting to hear back from Hemlock on the opportunity to try a boat without having to drive to their place - we’ll see if that turns up anything.

Keith

#32

The Peregrine has sticky stems. Mine however got sold for the reason I liked the manuevarability of the Nomad better. Going upstream even in a mild current like the Batsto the Peregerine just stuck and wouldnt turn easily.
Paper specs are not that useful… The actual Peregrines I have measured with a chalk line don’t correspond to the rocker stats. That said I am not getting into a pi…match with Dave Curtis who I like
Keith… the lake is freezing up… Sent you a PM

#33

Hi Kattenbo. My experience is not same as kayamedic. I really liked my Peregrine and would get another in a minute. In my experience it cruises effortlessly and turns cooperatively, just as it was intended to do. Peregrine was based on Nomad plug with just a bit more rocker to help make it turn a bit better than Nomad. Mine for sure had the advertised rocker…easily seen by just setting the boat on a flat surface.

My Peregrine outperformed my Merlin Ii by a touch and the Merlin is a pretty hot boat. I remember cruising past a tandem boat effortlessly in the Peregrine and being asked “how can you do that?”.

:slight_smile:

I had mine out on incredibly windy days and it could always drive through the wind and waves.

I just did not like the feel of my Northstar Solo. It felt sluggish compared to my Merlin Ii or Peregrine…like it took too much muscle. For me there was nothing special about its maneuverability either…similar to a Peregrine. Plus the Northstar Solo did not seem to “like” the weight of my dog…while most solos actually feel better to me (“happy”) with the extra weight. I wanted to love the boat and tried hard but it just did not work for me. Mine was a beautiful black lite boat with wood trim.

I also did not love the Nomad…for me that boat had very sticky stems even on slowly moving water, but it’s a sweetheart on a quiet pond (for me).

Your results may vary.

#34

Get two paddlers together, get three opinions - it’s the nature of the tribe…

Thanks to you both for the comments - I’m hoping to try both (with a little help from kayamedic and friends).

#35

Uh uh. While Nomad is a Dave Yost design. Curtis tweaked the design and flattened the bottom and Dave Curtis will completely deny it has a similarity to the Nomad. P has much less rocker. Run a laser beam over both hulls or a chalk line. I’ve seen a couple actually hogged. Mine was a little but I don’t think it affected the boat much.

Both are in the same family tree of the Solo Tripper.

#36

Actually the last time Dave told me the history of the Peregrine he for sure acknowledged strong linkage to the Nomad predecessor. He told me that his intent was to add a bit more maneuverability. I don’t have much time in Nomads. I did have the smaller Vagabond at same time as the Kestrel and Peregrine. Again my perception was that the newer models did indeed turn a bit better…while none of them really turn anything like a more river oriented hull…none have much rocker do they? A Kee 15 or NW solo may turn slightly better than a Peregrine but for me they are similar in that none are playful…mostly they are effective traveling tools. I’m happy with my Merlin II as my “lake boat”, especially since I have a few other more playful solos.

Kattenbo, I would have sworn that Peregrine waterline width was at least an inch less than NW Solo…but you are right. Maybe the actual waterline width with a paddler is different. I put a lot of miles on my Peregrine and for sure it was equal or slightly faster cruising than my Merlin II which has a 25.5 inch waterline spec. For me the NW Solo felt incredibly stable even sitting…even more stable than Peregrine which is already a very friendly/stable boat. But it also felt bigger/wider and more sluggish to me…and more sluggish than my Merlin II.

Just my two cents. I’m about 6’1" and 185 and with the dog my normal day paddle load is around 240-250.

#37

@TomL - We’re about the same size - I used to 6’2", might be a bit shorter now, and run between 180-185. My dog is a little lighter, so with him, I’d be around 230-240 in the boat.

@All - I think it’s going to come down to figuring out the balance between two things - nothing new here, pretty much restating the well-known:

One is which stroke set will be more challenging to get the experience I want. With a more “river” boat, like the Phoenix, the challenge will be J’s and other “go straight” strokes. With a more “lake” boat like the NW Solo, the challenge will be “maneuver” strokes to get the nice crisp reactions that I like about canoeing.

The other is what part of paddling do I want to avoid most - fighting to control boat direction when dealing with winds or having to fight the boat when trying to maneuver. Flip side of the same coin I know.

When soloing the Malecite I’m paddling a wide boat with asymmetrical rocker (paddling backwards, so it’s 1.5" “stern”, 2.5" “bow”), with a shortened waterline (sitting on the bow seat facing the stern so the bow is raised) I paddle with the boat on edge (“Canadian”? style) to get close to the water and improve maneuverability. Because of the size of the boat it rides high in the water, so remains quick to turn, but can be hard to control in conditions (I move up to kneel under the carry yoke to bring the bow down and shift weight, but it still likes to twirl - I can control it - mostly). I really like the light feel when maneuvering, and really get annoyed when fighting wind and lose that control.

I think the solution for me in a solo is going to be to find a boat that is a bit on the tracking side of the scale, but remains stable and can be paddled when on edge (“Canadian” style) for extended periods. I think that will give me a good mix.

Make sense? Any considerations I’m missing?

Keith

#38

Hull shape underwater has a big influence on wind behavior and so far the Nomad is the best. That’s why it goes with me on open water trips
Strong Swede form boats are finicky
The Osprey is known to be a challenge
The Peregrine less so. On one Glades trip i had strong stern quartering winds with a six foot six second period sea and was able to control albeit with a pucker sphincter
I had the Peregrine. Next trip same conditions and a slightly less scary experience

The Dragon Fly or the WildFire would have terrified me.

#39

@kayamedic: Thanks for the quick litany - consensus seems to be the NW Solo, Kee 15, Peregrine and Nomad should be top of list. I’ve already tried the Solo and Kee 15 and of those two, the Solo seems to be a better fit for me. Next step is to try the Nomad and Peregrine using the Solo as the baseline. I’m also going to retry the Trillium with a kneeling seat.

FYI - I just did my first paddle in the Malecite using the newly installed kneeling thwart (surprisingly comfortable). I wanted to get a feel for how it handles with from a position more like the solos - see how different it was from paddling it from the bow seat facing the stern.

The change was noticeable and brought the feel of the Malecite more in line with other solos. There was more boat in the water, so turns were not quite as quick. Draws were easier to balance from the more centered position. The stern was looser, but the Malecite has more rocker in the stern (2.5") then the bow (1.5") so that wasn’t a surprise. Overall it didn’t feel as “light”, again, since it’s sitting flatter, not surprising.

Side question - I’m now wondering if the kneeling thwart should be swapped so it’s on the bow side of the yoke facing the stern - then the Malecite’s rocker lines up with the other asymmetrical hulls - less in “stern” (1.5"), more in the “bow” (2.5"). Thoughts?

Keith

#40

Look at the hull cross sections in the bow vs the stern… You are stuck on rocker… Hull shape is way more than that. Usually the bow cross section is way more flared than the stern
I am sick. Hosting company on Thanksgiving. No way can I coordinate a visit with a canoe three hundred miles from here and maybe that owner is not even home… Good luck