@kayamedic - Very sorry to hear you’re not feeling well, especially going into the holidays with company coming - hope you’ll be able to get a bit of rest in the midst of the preparations and will be able to enjoy Thanksgiving at least a bit.
And thanks for the comment on hull sections. You’re absolutely right that I’ve been focused on rocker as a key characteristic of a symmetric hull. Good to get reminded of the broader view.
Again, sorry to hear you’re not well - hope you’re feeling better soon.
I’ve never heard of a boat with more rocker in rear than front but I did find an old Mad River catalog that confirmed it for Malecite. Very strange although as kayamedic said rocker is not the whole story. Putting a kneeling thwart ahead of center in an asymmetric canoe seems crazy…but you could always try sitting on a six pack cooler and seeing how it feels before doing anything permanent.
Malecite has a shallow v hull while every other boat you are trying is a more modern shallow arch. Maybe that is a factor…maybe the v hull helps keep the ends in the water while also giving you a big boat that feels light to you.
All canoes are displacement hulls…they all push through the water. But I think I know what you mean…some boats always respond to steering inputs, others may be stubborn (like Osprey with quartering tailwind).
If a Trillium does not feel right to you yet a Kee 15 feels nice but not particularly quick…it seems like it’s getting down to personal taste. I think you’d be surprised with how “free” the Swift Shearwater feels but it’s not as quick/fast as a Kee 15 (but it does feel like a solo…so a huge upgrade from a Malecite for solo use). Shearwater is also fun to play with on a pond…so quite good for both lakes and rivers.
Did you ever paddle a Trillium kneeling?
Another comment is that you may want to consider having more than one solo boat eventually. Seems like you would appreciate having both a lake boat and a river boat. Good boats turn up used if you are patient. There is a Bell Wildfire in the classifieds that would make an awesome complement to any lake boat. I think that a boat that is good for rivers or freestyle will be best for developing deep paddling skills but boats with minimal tracking (like Wildfire) can also be frustrating for newer paddlers since some skill is needed just to make it go straight.
If you were disappointed with 3 knot cruising speed of Kee 15, I know the Peregrine or Nomad would do better, but I do not know if they would feel “light” to you or not since the low rocker which makes them fast and wind proof also make them less responsive to steering inputs…but if you were happy with Kee 15 steering you don’t give up much with Peregrine.
@TomL - I was surprised about the rocker in the Malecite myself - I asked a guy I was paddling with in NJ about it and he commented it had to do with how a tandem was trimmed - not sure how, it was a passing comment.
The kneeling thwart “ahead” of center would be facing the stern, so it would still be “behind” center when I was soloing. That reverses the rocker and puts the 1.5" in the stern and the 2.5" in the bow - similar to several solo boats.
I suspect that the shallow “V” can certainly be a difference. When I paddled from the more centered position using the thwart, the feeling more aligned with other solos.
I still haven’t paddled the Trillium kneeling yet, but should have an opportunity after Thanksgiving. I got a set of kneeling hangers from Northstar and the owner has agreed to let me swop out on his boat, we just need to coordinate a time.
Having a second solo seems like the ultimate solution, but I’m running out of garage space. I’ll start with one and see where it goes.
And you’re right, it’s coming down to “feel” and personal preference - as always.
Tom I am trying to play matchmaker with the new owner of my old Peregrine…What the stats and the papers say sometimes is squat when the dog enters in and when the user psyche and environs are a factor. We all paddle different stuff.
I love your comment about more than one solo. OK… At one point there were ten. And they were all a little different and they were all great rationales for why i NEEDED another boat.
But I think your point was that its hard to stop at one solo… My measure was how much I used a boat in two years. With one exception if a boat went unused in two years it had to go. At one time they were ALL used . Over time some not so much.
Maybe we change?
Congratulations TomL… a fellow ambush buyer… Patience is key. And no boat is perfect nor final
Had an opportunity to try the Peregrine yesterday (thanks Ted and Kim).
Carbon layup, wood trim, well used but in good shape. Paddle was on a very small lake, bit of a breeze, no moving water.
Launched from the shallows - always interesting the first time getting into a new boat. Settled into a kneel - seat height was comfortable, slight tilt forward, but feet (water shoes) fit nicely.
The boat was light in the water - started with some draws to pull away from the bank - moved nicely. I was a bit surprised - I thought it would drag more when moving sideways (pretty straight keel). Going forward it moved quickly (for me) and was easy to keep on line.
First time in a skinny boat is always interesting. I started off keeping the paddle in the water on recovery (helps me with stability), but fairly quickly was able to comfortably move to a standard “J” with out of water recovery. Initial stability is middling, which made it easy to quickly shift balance from one side to the other without too much worry about going too far. Secondary stability was solid, which provides confidence that the shift won’t go too far.
It also makes it comfortable to paddle on edge, improving the ability to turn quickly. Turned quickly when asked, tracked nicely. Good boat.
Overall have now paddled six boats ( (Wenonah Prism, Swift Keewaydin 15, Northstar Trillium, Northstar Phoenix, Northstar Northwind Solo and the Peregrine). I’m putting the Peregrine at the top of my list just a titch behind the NW Solo (everybody’s list is a bit different). Very, very close
I’m working on finishing the trials next week - retrying the Trillium and possibly a Nomad and Wildfire. I’m hoping to make a decision quickly after that.
It’s fun to hear your impressions. Based on rocker specs the NW solo should turn MUCH better than Peregrine but in reality I agree that they are more alike than different.
Sometimes I think that I must be stronger than usual when test paddling…maybe due to excitement and adrenaline? I liked both NW solo and Phoenix when test paddling but not in the long run (again - your results may vary). I remember that my Peregrine would tug at my should muscle a bit at the very beginning of the stroke when compared to my Merlin Ii but it also rewarded the pain with speed…that boat felt like it was on wheels and each stroke just levered it forward with no slip between paddle and water, while the Merlin Ii never tugs at your shoulder but does give up a touch of cruise speed. For me the NW solo tugged even harder on my shoulder at the very beginning of the stroke but there was no reward for the pain, and my lower back was telling me very clearly that it much preferred my other solos.
So kattenbo, there is always room for one more boat. Hang one from a ceiling or get one with aluminum rails and store it outside or partner with a neighbor or or or. If you ask for advice on canoe storage we will help you out.
So Wildfire, Nomad, and Trillium next? Those 3 would make a lovely little fleet…a great lake boat, a great river/freestyle boat, and a hot all around boat.
@TomL - thanks for the comments - good way to describe the difference you feel between the Peregrine and the NW Solo.
Already have two boats hanging and two on the wall. One’s on the way out and will be replaced by the solo boat. Might be able to put one more on the wall. Got a bit of experience storing boats (work part time at a kayak and canoe shop), but always open to new suggestions.
Your impressions can very much depend on your seat. Different folks like different seats and different cant angles. But I suspect you both know that you can fiddle with seat height placement and fore and aft placement… All my seats are Eds Cane Bucket for my comfort.
I don’t get the tug on the shoulder part but that too can indicate differences in biomechanics. So its not really surprising that different people have different impressions.
Ha ha. You are missing the Dragon Fly … Its here but I suspect your dog will not like it… Its the quintissential river boat. More river play than the WildFire.
I know its not nice to muddy the pot http://coldencanoe.com/dragonfly.html
From a trip on West Branch Penobscot River and Chesuncook Lake… Yes that is a sinful double blade and a errant pack strap. I should have neatened it up if I knew Paul was going to use it on his web page! Chesuncook is 27 miles long two miles long and it was a blowy day with two foot waves… I use a double in those conditions cause frankly I couldnt afford the friction loss from a J stroke and hit and switch was too at risk for dropping and losing a paddle. That pic was from a rest stop.
Which did you like better? I cant plant the paddle right next to me vertical in the Shearwater. Osprey has a rep for being a handful in stern quartering winds. Its not alone in that trait.
Well, we’ve got a winner. This morning I ordered a Northstar Trillium in the Blacklite layup, wood trim and a kneeling seat (also ordered longer drops for a sitting position).
Took a while to get there (obviously - paddled a total of seven different good solo boats). And a bit of a surprise, because the Trillium was the second I tried and I went by it. But it bothered me that I hadn’t been able to paddle kneeling (seat had long drops for sitting - couldn’t get feet under it). So got back in to for a retry on Tuesday, after changing the hangers out so it was higher for kneeling. What a difference.
Here’s a copy of the comments I sent to Northstar - couldn’t say it better, so re-posting here (“Pat” is the owner of Contoocook River Canoe Company in Concord NH). Can you tell I’m excited?
"I placed the order for the Trillium with Pat this morning. I am really looking forward to getting the boat - it was an immediate “oh wow” when I finally got into it in a kneel. Quick, responsive, efficient - playful - exactly the feeling I was looking for. I took it out on Lake Sebago in Maine - temp was about 36 degrees, with some wind (probably 8-9 KTs - enough to kick up some wind waves, ripple the tops, but not quite enough to whitecap). I launched in a cove, which gave me some time on flat water, then stuck the nose (and the rest of the boat) out into the small bouncy stuff. Was able to box the wind and waves. Loved the control and tracking - both quartering into the wind and with the following wind/waves - needed only occasional minor correction strokes. The stability when sideways to the waves (I found some submerged rocks that kicked them up a bit) was great - after 20 minutes in the boat I would have been ready for the about 1/2 mile crossing to the opposite shore with the wind on the beam. With the stability I found I could easily edge the boat to either side depending on the way I wanted to turn.
Maneuverability was great - towards the end of the first trial I got back into the cove and drove the edge down close to the rail - took a fair amount of effort. Bodes well for being good for Iain-the-boat-dog to shift position without shifting me into the water.
I did reinstall the longer seat drops and take the boat out sitting with a double paddle. I use Greenland paddles, so was out with the skinny sticks. Also a good experience - moved and tracked well. I need to figure out had to lock in a bit better for edging, but I’m looking forward to doing that. I want to avoid installing a footbrace if possible.
Anyway, sorry to go on, but it’s a great boat. After trying 7 solos, I didn’t think the feel I was looking for was out there. Retrying the Trillium in a kneel proved me wrong - knew it after 5 strokes."
I want to thank y’all for all the comments and suggestions - really helpful and educational. And I want to do a shout out to Andy, Nick, Ted and Kim for (patiently) letting me try their personal boats, as well as Collinsville Canoe and Kayak and Newbury Kayak and Canoe (my home shop) for the use of their demos. Finally to Pat (above) and to Bear Paulson of Northstar for their help.
It’s been great, I’m smiling, and hope to see y’all on the water.
With the boats you were trying, you couldn’t make a bad choice. Funny you ended up back where your started, but the seat position does make a huge difference. When the boat comes in let us know. We could probably get a small P-net (or former P-net) crew together for trip up your way - Concord, Merrimack, Contoocook or something else. I’ve been trying to get together with DougD on the Pemi.
Isn’t it funny that you can do lots of research and lots of testing and then WHAM you are in love and you know its the mate for you?
And no other will do.
When you first posted I had idea who you were. Then when you came over I recognized your face from Maine Canoe Symposium… I hope you bring the Trillium to the event next year!
Congrats on your new boat! Based on your comments it sounds like it paddles like its specs which suggest that it’s a red hot boat that also turns . I think I need to avoid trying a Trillium since I am trying hard to be content with the boats I have…even ignoring the Starfire in the classifieds.
I hope your puppy is more robust to cold weather than mine. Mine was shivering even with her sweater and a blanket last week.
Hey kayamedic, I love my Osprey and Shearwater almost equally. Shearwater is big for sure and probably not ideal for vertical strokes but I do have long arms. If I’m on big water or water where powerboats may pass I like the security of a big boat…plus I’ve had both the dog and a 10 year old in it and it handles it easily. I like to have a boat where I can take my wife along (as ballast). The Osprey is the fun one…super responsive and easy to lay over until the gunnel is almost buried…it does not push back like a Wildfire. For sure it could be a handful in a quartering tailwind ( it’s a very turny boat) but when you can’t control it with forward strokes you just use the paddle as a rudder until it’s back on course…no huge problem. Osprey cruises much better than Shearwater and is also my favorite boat for the few times I go without the dog…it’s a relatively low volume 15 footer. Both are fun on ponds too…with sliding seats you can get way forward and they spin almost like Fire boats - for forward turns.
So kattenbo, do you have a paddle that’s a good match for the Trillium ? If not I’ll suggest a straight shaft Zaveral…somewhere between 56 and 57 inches.
@eckilson: I agree - there wasn’t a bad choice in the group - it was a case of which really good boat fit best what I personally wanted to do, and best matched the hard-to-describe “feel” I was looking for. And I’m absolutely up for a paddle, when the boat comes in or before (remember, I’ve got the Malecite). Arrival time depends on whether it gets on the first truck (Feb/Mar) or the second truck (Apr/May).
@kayamedic: “Wham” is a good description. I got the kneeling seat in, settled in, pushed off, took about five strokes and said “Oh, wow”. Just felt right. And yes, it will be at the Symposium.
@TomL: if you’re in the Northeast you’re welcome to try once it shows up. On the paddles, I’m currently using a 57" Bending Branches Beavertail and a 57" Dri-Ki Beavertail with a Maine Guide handle. I’m looking for/going to carve an Ottertail. I’ve tried the Badger Tripper and really like it. I’ll probably stay with wood - like the feel.
More testing is needed now that we are talking paddles.
Smaller boat turn more easily with wider paddles. Think minimum 7.5 inches wide with a 34 inch shaft. You could probably go up to 8.5 inches.
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But check out Fox Worx Saranac paddle. I trip with a Grey Owl Freestyle but that was discontinued. The closest now is the Fleetwood.
Try for about 19 oz. It will make your Dri Ki paddle seem like a brick… Good paddles but a wee bit heavy
I also have a Bending Branches Espresso ST and several Dogpaddle paddles.
Shape study: you are quite welcome to return to try any or all when you get your new baby.
I need a paddle for Christmas - I think I am going to try the 56" Saranac for playing around in the Wildfire. I use a 58" Werner Bandit for most paddling. It’s a brick, but it is what I am use to.
