Whoa…
I’ll take American English dialects for 200, Alex. 
Teh internets may be part o’ the prob…
I think a lot of it may be the internet’s fault.
Many customers (not necessarily this 300 lb lady) educate themselves on the internet, and then somehow decide that the salesperson is the enemy, i.e. the salesperson is just trying to sell “what’s in stock”, or they’re trying to steer ppl towards the more expensive boats, or the boats that said ‘boat snob’ salesperson personally likes best, nevermind what the customer actually needs. =<br />
Probably that does happen once in awhile, but lumping all the helpful salesfolks who actually care in with the few bad eggs causes the customer to miss out on a lot of great advice.
I’ve also noticed that in things like wilderness retail, the sales ppl are by and large MUCH cooler and more caring than say, the ppl selling cars or TVs. There’s just something about camping/paddling/sailing/surfing/whatever that doesn’t interest the douchbags so much.
Even REI salespeople are generally cool, though they don’t always know a ton ('cuz the dang store sells almost everything).
That’s right
– Last Updated: Aug-05-11 8:05 PM EST –
Someone comes and asks for your expert opinion and then ignores it...F 'em. Let them figure it out on their own. One thing - a 300 lb woman might be very unstable in a canoe. I just guided a group of youths and I noticed that the canoes of the more obese children were borderline stable. I'd drop her into the bottom of a wide kayak myself.
I thought that way
Thought I’d died and gone to heaven when I got my Old Town Loon 13’ kayak about 6 years ago. It was so much better than a canoe in every way. So easy and efficient to paddle! In a few years I’d moved up to sea kayaks and a nice QCC600 that blew that Loon out of the water. Kayaks were the bomb!
Then I needed something to take the dog out in and do some fishing with. I found a used Bell Magic and was shocked to find out how fun and efficient it was to paddle. The only canoes I’d ever been in before were big old aluminum tandems and that’s what had created my misconception.
I try not to push people too hard into getting a canoe rather than a kayak (or even something better than a plastic hunk of junk they’ll grow out of in a year). Like me, they’ll figure it out on the their own as they start progressing to better and better boats. Or they’ll stay blissfully happy in their little plastic pig. Or they’ll never get out on the water anyway.
It’s got to be their decision.No one could have told me any different when I bought my Loon.
Alan
Something from the other side
Dear Board,
I’m kind of one of “those people” the OP referred to in his original post. I’m a not plus-sized woman, but I am a middle-aged heavyset guy who compounds the issue by being 6’5".
I’d like to offer one man’s view of how the boat selection process works.
Many of the things that folks who have been at the paddling sport for a while seem to intuitively know are not always so easy for the uninitiated to grasp.
Mostly we read and try to comprehend all that is written, but without a good reference point much of that seems like a foreign language?
In my quest to make the right choice I’ve asked a number of questions both here and elsewhere about a “boat” that would be well suited to my preferences.
I’ve received some excellent responses that favored both canoes and kayaks, but most offered the suggestion of test paddling canoes and kayaks.
I’m all for that but I have to admit that as an inexperienced paddler I’m not certain that my intial impressions would prove to be accurate a couple of months after purchase?
At the same time, I don’t want to waste a shop’s time testing things I admittedly know little or nothing about.
So I’m back where I started, ISO a boat that will allow me to fish on sheltered lakes and run the occasional slow moving but rocky and hard bottomed river for 3 seasons out of the year. I’ll mostly go alone but I do want the option of taking my fiance along for she has gone fishing with me from the bank and while wading and she seems to enjoy it.
Having said that, it looks like I’ll soon join the ranks of the short handled paddler’s by buying a canoe. I’ve run across a very good deal on a 17’ Nova Craft Prospector that will be OK for what I want to do but not ideal for anything I want to do.
That suits me just fine for I’m not especially great or bad at anything myself.
Regards,
Goobs AKA Tim Murphy 
Live and learn, or
spend and learn, and spend and learn again,
and maybe again, and again…
Start with the Truth
although I agree with Fat Elmo, When asked I always tell people about the amount of unused Canoes/ kayaks I see on peoples lake front property. I have only seen one Sawyer and one Wenonah obviously unused. The preponderance of the other floating stock is el cheapo models. I have also come across a few older canoes that obviously are used with some frequency, but they are not Coleman/rogue river types.
REI paddle fest
REI recently had a paddle fest in the area. They carry some nice canoes (Esquif Canyon, MR Explorer, OT Charles River) so I stopped by to give a couple of them a try. Only to find that, of the scores of boats they brought to the lake, they only brought a couple of canoes (a Saranac and a Guide as I recall). All the rest were Kayaks.
Do they bring more Kayaks because that what people are buying, or do people buy more kayaks because that’s what is being sold?
Metacognition
People retain biases that are set early, like the idea that all canoes are the same as the 90 lbs beatup Grumman they tried to paddle in camp. And there’s really no way to overcome that except through self discovery. What’s interesting to me is that old, beatup Grummans are becoming a rarer species. And this “decline of the canoe” (south of Minna-so-cold anyway) isn’t a new thing, its been happening since the 90’s. Lots of kids have never even been in a canoe. I wonder if that generation will start to develop a disdain for pumpkin-seed rec kayaks previously held for aluminum canoes? Because, look out! - here come SUPs.
Well, anyway I’m a canoe man and have to chuckle about the on-going kayak obsession. But hey, at least these folks are satisfying their urge to “keep up with the Jones” with kayaks instead of Ski-Dos. Thankful for that.
Perfectly stated…
Your post really hits the situation that comes up from new paddlers perfectly.
There are typical pieces of advice that come up when someone first asks about a craft that you likely hit. The first is that you would ultimately want a couple of craft, each more specifically suited to the couple of environments you mentioned in your post.
The problem is, you are talking to people who have a lot of time in those environments and have strong preferences about the performance they want from their boats. Once you add in more specific performance criteria, there isn’t a do-it-all (well) boat. There are just can-get-by-with-it boats. They are fine boats for their purpose, but they don’t meet the needs of many of the folks to whom you are talking on this board.
This does not make sense to a new paddler. As you note the performance discussion seems rather arcane and removed from your desire to just get a darned boat and start paddling. But you’re asking for advice on how to spend your money. IMO, it’s a good thing that people want to be sure it is the right advice.
The second is that many have learned that the ultimate way to know that a boat will feel good is that it feels good. A lot of us made it into the seats of enough boats to have that aha! moment that this is MY boat, and found out they can trust that. This doesn’t require any particular skill or knowledge, but until you’ve taken a leap with a boat from that moment you don’t know if you can trust it.
Hence the suggestion to start out used…
You added an additional wrinkle, with a fiance who may turn into a more active paddling partner and may not. There is no way around that one but to get into some boats with her. Trying the canoe is a good start, perhaps she’ll be a good fit there. You should probably also rent a couple of kayaks solo and/or go on a tour to see if she responds better to that. The likelihood of a significant other being a full time paddling partner is all over the place, even with people we’ve known who have gone out and built absolutely gorgeous boats for their spouse.
even further…
Some of the “missions” of canoes and kayaks would be better served by rowing craft, as they used to be. IMO, something like an Adirondack guideboat or Rangely Lake boat has a lot of advantages over a canoe for use in the environment they were desgned for. But most people think “clunky aluminum thing” when they hear “row boat”, and have no concept of how easy it is to move a good boat with oars.
What?
What? ;-}
Best canoe for most
The best canoe for a lot of these folks who need to do everthing is the Pungo 14. Just tell the it is a kayak! Since it already has bulkheads the only accesories needed are the electric bilge pump and a cart because it is so heavy.
Remeber to tell them it is a kayak!
Saving myself some energy
– Last Updated: Aug-06-11 7:40 PM EST –
I have found a simple way of saving myself some energy, and avoiding unnecessary hassles.
If I haven't owned and paddled a particular boat; I don't waste my time, or the time of the person seeking advice about that particular boat.
I attempt to point them in the direction of someone who might be able to assist them.
I don't paddle kayaks; so I don't give advice about kayaks.
A lot of people(too many)asking about a particular boat already have a "this is the boat I need" mindset, and are looking for positive reinforcement from someone/anyone for their decision.
Often they are novice paddlers, and really have no idea whatsoever about "what they need".
Their decision to buy a particular boat was often made, based on some ad man's blurb they read, and/or advice they received from a friend(often another novice) who "already has that particular boat", and "it's just great for everything"!
These boats often end up being resold at bargain basement prices within the first year of ownership, or becoming dust magnets in garages, storage shed, and carports.
Many of these same buyers make similiar inquiries, seeking advice about waterproof cameras, tents, expensive paddles,pfds, gps, drysuits, etc. Those items will often end up just like the boats.
Buying boats & gear & talking about how they'll use it(fantasy), is often a lot more fun than actually using it.
BOB
P.S. Just for grins; check out the number of kayaks in the $1,500.00 (or more) price range currently available in pnet classifieds.
Kayak manufacturers/dealers are lovin' it.
what’s in a name?
Good point (on the Pungo). A lot of craft being sold as “kayaks” seem closer in design heritage to canoes, dinghies, jon boats and even pirogues.
I suppose the popularity of nominal "kayaks"is a marketing thing, kinda like back with the "SUV"s. Image conscious car buyers who would not have been caught dead in a “declasse” minivan or station wagon (even though that is exactly what they needed to haul junk or offspring) could be persuaded to spend 25% to 50% more for nearly identical cars relabeled “sport utility vehicle”.
And I had not thought of it before you mentioned that aspect, but I too would certainly prefer to have the local waterways cluttered with pumpkin seeds rather than jet skis. Many of them never get far from shore anyway, and I guess you can’t fault the manufacturers for supplying the market demand for what I call quasi-yaks.
But I feel there are downsides to this flood on the market of easily obtained and transported cheap small boats. Too many people trying to take inept little craft in places where they are not safe, like whitewater runs, commercial shipping lanes and exposed open ocean. I fear many people have a false sense of security in them, feeling “safer” in anything called a kayak than they would in a proper canoe, so they believe that such a boat can be taken anywhere. They see sea kayaks and whitewater kayaks in use in waters for which those are designed, and figure “a kayak is a kayak”. Too many novices who would panic at the thought of launching an open canoe into coastal surf or a Class III stream seem to think nothing of doing so in a $300 rec boat. We had a death here last Spring when a pair of guys with no previous experience launched borrowed rec boats into a Class VI river at triple the normal gauge height and flow.
There also seems to be a misconception that you need less (or no) instruction or skill to paddle a “kayak”, that it is “easier” than a canoe.
A whole other issue related to this is the worry that an increase in “kayak” incidents, from increased rescue events by maritime authorities, needless deaths and congestion and interference in waterways may lead to increased regulation and restrictions that could penalize responsible and competent boaters of all kinds. This happened back in the 1970’s and 80’s with rock climbing and mountaineering when many accidents and rescues were precipitated by untrained and under-equipped people who got in over their heads after being attracted by the “coolness” factor (much of it promoted by media and marketing.)
This comes full circle to what I feel is our responsibility, collectively and individually, to educate and guide newcomers to the sport in their selection of the best boat for them. This website and the forums are an excellent way to do that. I have referred many newbies here with what has seemed to be good results.
It is a shame that the outfitters are not doing more to promote canoes. It is harder to find independent dealers who sell both anymore – canoes seem to be more associated with fishing and hunting shops while the kayaks are sold by backpacking, XC ski and climbing outfitters.
Canoes are like SUVs or pickups
Canoes are like SUVs or pickups, and kayaks are like Sports cars. Which one do most people lean to in looks. The sports car that’s pretty and flashy and goes fast and you look cool in. Thus most want the kayak and shy away from the canoe which is the load master, clunky looking pickup truck of paddling.
I prefer the pickup look and thus have a canoe.
There you go …that metacognition thing
Some canoes are faster than kayaks! Or can at least keep up
Now RapidFire is not the fastest boat but will beat out any 14 foot light touring kayak… It cruises with 17 footers. (I did on Lake Superior and the people I was conversing with did not seem to hold back) The PBW Shadow (which I don’t have) has a better waterline length to width ratio than many sea kayaks…
But the image of the dumpy canoe scow persists in many peoples minds. Along with the mentally fixed requirement that canoes are for two.
At any rate its all paddling and we paddle our own trips rather than someone elses vision of a trip… The OP did not have an audience in a “teachable moment”. Unsolicited advice is rarely welcomed… so you let em live and learn. I have tried to do the Good Sam thing re PFD wearing and I have yet to have someone think “gee that is a good idea” and actually put it on there.
Stores should set up a canoe option.
I think that a Disco 119 set up with lowered seat, backband, and footpegs or brace would help new paddlers see how a canoe can be more suitable for some people. There are some high end hybrids available, but a less expensive option could sell a few boats and make some happy customers. Have some double paddles in stock that are long enough and strong enough to paddle a Disco. Just a thought from someone who paddles a Mohawk that’s set up for double blade paddling.
I’ve got some pretty sexy solo canoes.
Sexier looking than a few of my kayaks.
extending the automotive analogies
– Last Updated: Aug-08-11 1:16 PM EST –
I can see a good sea kayak, surf ski or white water kayak being equivalent to a "sports car" but most rec kayaks are more comparable to a Yugo or Moped.
Maybe since 2/3's of Americans are statistically obese, they figure they can hide more flab in a SINK than in a canoe (kinda like the trend towards baggy board shorts.)