I tried to overcome the bias but failed
Want to buy a kayak?
I like tandem canoing …
… for all the reasons previously mentioned , oh , already said that .
But if I had a mind to go “solo” paddling only down a mountain river with goodly size ww and rapid runs , I think I could get into a decent ww kayak , probably a creek boat . Smallish , highly manuverable , skirted in , ready to go airborn , roll , and submarine … yeah , kayak for that I think . Get wet , stay wet , carnival ride , swim , and do some more of it . That’s about the only reason I can think of I’d want to be solo , otherwise it’s the peaceful comfortable company of a tandem canoe for me with the few mildly exciting moments of small ww and rapids when they show up .
Rec kayaks like Pungo 14,
- large-cockpit, wide, slow, ruder-less - are essentially small low-end decked canoes. TAD wide and short for a kayak, TAD short for a single canoe. Relatively heavy 53 lbs - same as a full-size fiberglass kayak or a high-volume double canoe, though P14 can’t be compared, it’s just a short daytrip boat. For its size it is heavy, of course. It exists in 43 lbs (Royalex?) version as well.
This kind of vessel works for many people, though. As long as he/she limits himself to daytrips in sheltered waters, - why not…
No doubt…
that a whitewater kayak is a better solo craft in whitewater than nearly any solo canoe. But on the other hand, there are lots of reasons to go with a solo canoe in many situations. I’m an avid river angler who has fished from just about every kind of craft you can take down a river, including tandem and solo canoes of about 15 different varieties, SOT and SINK yaks, inflatable kayaks, folding canoes, pontoon boats, drift boats, wooden johnboats, aluminum johnboats, rafts, and even an inner tube boat I made myself. Of them all, if I’m fishing and floating solo I want a solo canoe. But the popularity of kayaks among the angling crowd is unbelievable. Nobody even seems to consider a solo canoe, even though the canoe can do everything a kayak can, plus hold a lot more fishing tackle in a much more convenient manner.
Yup, my point exactly
Fad trumps function, I’m afraid.
It’s not a bias. It’s a fait accompli.
Canoeing will stay alive in Canada, especially Ontario and Quebec, and in the American states that border those two provinces. Aficionados paddle and portage long distances in these areas, and hence continue to appreciate the benefits of the open canoe.
Everywhere else in the USA the die has been cast. Except for a few old hangers-on and a very few hard core canoe clubs, canoeing is on life support in the sub-Canadian states.
The negative tipping point has been reached and passed. There are few canoes in the stores, and virtually no sales people in those stores who know a fig about canoes or single bladed technique. Hence fewer canoes are recommended, fewer are bought, single blade knowledge decreases further, and the death spiral accelerates.
Part of it is that single blading as an aesthetic sport, simply for the motion pleasure of elegant execution, has faded. One particular type of single bladed canoeing survives in the form of SnS racing in the Canadian border states, and a few other places, but single blading in the form of sport canoeing has lost too much critical mass in both the FW and WW realms.
Learning proficient single blade technique is too difficult and time consuming for the video game and later generations, and also for new entrants who are older people with modest athletic interests. Double blading is the opiate of the masses.
I totally disagree
Eventually the masses will come to appreciate the weight savings inherent in a pack canoe. You can double blade to your hearts content.
Savvier mfrs will offer adaptations to allow the weight savings to fit with the wants of old time single bladers.
right tool for the job
I view boats like the tools in my shop in as much as each tool or boat has an intended purpose. That dosen’t mean that several different tools can’t accomplish the same job but each one has a job that it was designed for and excels at. There are lots of different kinds of hammers and to some degree you could use them interchangeably. You could use a framing hammer to do finishing work or vise versa but the results would not be optimal. You can cross a lake in a whitewater play boat or run a rapid in an ocean kayak, but I wouldn’t suggest it. There are many kind of both canoes and kayaks. Each with its own intended purpose. They are all good and fun when used as intended. Sea kayakers often have a bias against rec kayaks, but for twisty smaller streams the rec kayak is a better choice. Offshore ocean kayaking in a rec kayak is asking for trouble. Expedition Canoes can carry much more equipment for those longer trips, and whitewater canoes are just as effective in torrents as kayaks. Sit on tops are great for warmwater fishing. I find all these boats appealing and wish I could them all. I don’t understand why a person would be biased toward one and disparaging to another?
Canoe vs. Kayak
I had read all the posting on this subject, and really it is a fad for kayaks. The kayak buying will stay for couple more years but it won’t ever past the number of years that canoes have been selling. As for those SOT kayaks they are okay but can’t use them in the winter, putting your legs in the freezing water temperature. Now as for kayaks you have large cockpits and squeeze into a hole ocean or tripping kayak, You can’t get up and stand and get something in the front or back. Both kayaks and canoes are tipsy, but kayaks are more easy to flip over then a canoe. Then you have a person stated that a kayak is faster then a canoe, check on the canoes mainly the new one’s they have passed the kayak speed. Then you have weight of the boat kayaks always came in lighter but now the canoe has even passed the kayak for weight. Then carry weight kayaks can’t compare to canoes in this no matter what kayak a canoe is more efficient on carrying weight. I paddled kayaks and always had a canoe but I will not tell another person buy a canoe instead of a kayak. It’s their choice!
Wha?
– Last Updated: Aug-09-11 10:31 AM EST –
Kayaks are a fad huh? I guess the greenland folks that used kayaks for everything from seal hunting (small and light) to moving whole families around with kids stored under deck (as big or bigger than most canoes) did so because they needed to look trendy if some white guy showed up with a camera to take a picture of them.
And canoes are always less tippy than a kayak? You really should talk to all the shops that end up selling someone a rec kayak with a huge cockpit after someone couldn't make it 10 feet from the dock in a canoe. The big old tandems are pretty steady, but the solos can dump someone who tenses up pretty easily. But if you've only spent time in the really bigger heavier ones...
Solo canoes have been easily found lighter than a single kayak for a long time - it is hardly recent. Hornbeck, the lighter layups from PBW, the pack canoes from Bell - and more that I am likely forgetting.
As kayakmedic said above, pack canoes resolve a lot of the problems that new paddlers find with single-blading boats with more windage. People just have to find their way to them.
What is this ‘canoe’ you speak of?
Never heard of 'em.
Never see any of 'em out here in California or Oregon either. =[
thoughtful post, thanks
I think what you took the time to post makes perfect sense as reasoning why canoes aren’t presently more popular. I’d like to think that as some old trades and crafts return that the appeal of canoe handling will return.
I’d say double-blade paddling allows for some sophisticated strokes and combinations but I think the interest for this has faded within the kayaking world.
In the end I’m skeptical that either canoeing or kayaking have the support of those interested in technique in the numbers they need to facilitate mass production and access to the sports.
Canoe vs. kayak are verbs
– Last Updated: Aug-09-11 10:34 AM EST –
In this discussion of a bias towards kayaks over canoes, I believe the important distinction should be upon the words "kayak" and "canoe" as active verbs not as nouns.
It is difficult to define the distinction between canoes and kayaks, as nouns, especially when considering decked crafts. Indeed, WW kayakers and WW C1 paddlers mostly use the exact same hulls for their sports. The only difference is that the kayaker sits in that hull and paddles with a double blade, while the canoeist kneels with a single blade.
Hence, I believe best distinction between the activities of canoeing and kayaking is not the shape of the water craft, but rather the implement of propulsion: namely, the single blade vs. the double blade, and the panoply of subtle skills that accompany the effective use of a single vs. double blade.
Therefore, I interpret this topic to be a claim that kayakING (= double blading any water craft) has overwhelmed canoeING (= single blading any water craft) in the sub-Canadian states. For this purpose, all so-called pack canoes, decked canoes, partially decked kayak/canoes involve the sport of kayaking when they are propelled by double blades.
In short, it is the skill of single blading that is rapidly dying in the sub-Canadian states, even if the water crafts being propelled may still look like canoes.
Weak marketing of canoes…
There is a lack of understanding about the advantages of a solo canoe for some people. Obviously, the best boat for a particular use is desired, but many people are misinformed. Some people don’t need a kayak or have physical reasons that make a kayak less desirable. They don’t know that a canoe, set up for sitting could work better for their situation. Single blading a solo from a low sitting position is typically not efficient. Sitting high enough to rotate and stroke properly is typically less stable. I’ve been thru the experiment myself and switched to a double blade. Some of us can’t kneel. Bless all of you who can. I wish I could. Some of us can’t remain in the same position very long unless we like pain more than pleasant paddling. So kayaks are a problem. I like kayaks and used to enjoy paddling them. Some of us like to haul enough gear for a trip. Thankfully, some of the manufacturers have recognized this and now have hybrid boats. However, those are typically priced higher. I think that less expensive solo canoes would sell if stores did a better job of demonstrating their suitability.
The “trend” is changing around here
I grew up with canoes in Canada- loved them but found a good fitting kayak much more comfortable for me many years later in PA. I still keep my 15’ grumman in case we go fishing/cold water paddling but then again - it is a different animal than the canoes available now.
Many of the paddlers our group paddles with are showing up with wonderful lightweight pack and sometimes tandem canoes of very nice quality and design and leaving their kayaks at home.
I must admit i attended (donned the dark sunglasses!) a few solo canoe rendevous events here in PA ! Haha and was asked if i am going to the “other side!” well, if i could afford the solo canoes ie rapidfire specifically, then i may go to the dark side (or light side depending on who you talk with) They are a joy to paddle and carry but with my paddle style and double blade - i get quite wet and no sprayskirt to speak of.
Canoes vs kayaks- a topic no one will win. Preference - plain and simple 2 different animals. I like them both.
Now re the original post - i helped load people up into kayaks (no canoes available) during our regatta this past weekend and it was no small feat. The very large people got the pamlico open cockpit or tandems or preferably the sit on tops. One young very obese boy, we were lucky to get him out, was pretty much stuck in a kayak and would have been better perhaps in canoe.(which we didnt have available)
People need to find a boat that fits them more so than just wanting a particular boat and it is difficult to try to tell someone that they are just to large to try that particular boat or that another one would be much more comfortable and suitable for their particular shape - a little finesse helps!
kayaks aren’t the fad, the overbuying is
Of course I don’t consider kayaks a “fad” in the sense of a transient phenomenon in and of themselves. My university studies were in North American prehistory and I have always been fascinated by the antiquity, ingenuity and beauty of aboriginal watercraft around the world. And I own and lovingly paddle a West Greenland replica SOF hunting qajaq.
But what is a fad is the wholesale stampede of kayak (or kayak-like boat) buying by people who have never in their lives even sat in a solo or tandem non-powered watercraft, let alone paddled one. Single friends of mine who utilize personal ads and dating sites report that virtually everyone on these sites lists “kayaking” among their “hobbies” but upon further inquiry, half have never tried paddling at all (but they “plan to”) and a large proportion of the other half own a rec kayak and have never had any instruction. Evidence it is a media-inspired, image related fad.
I suppose I should stop being curmudgeonly. The craze has led to a lot of secondary market “churning”, with increased boat listings in the classifieds ranging from brand new kayaks that never made it to the water to classic golden oldies that have been languishing in obscurity being offered now that the general public recognizes that they have something in the back of the shed that somebody might like to buy (like the nice '84 Chinook I picked up 2 weeks ago for $100).
Some of my discomfort with the headlong kayaking stampede arises from memories of the 1970’s and ‘80s popular craze for climbing, spelunking and backpacking and the number of times that well-planned outings by experienced and competent outdoors folk (including myself and my friends) had to be interrupted to assist in the rescue and evacuation of clueless newbies stranded or injured. Not to mention the damage they did to natural areas due to crowding and obliviousness to “leave no trace” principles.
And, as mentioned before, how the problems caused by those amateurs ended up reflecting on the public’s and the authorities’ perceptions of climbers and backcountry trekkers as a whole. Several of the best rock climbing and caving areas that we had free access to during the ‘70’s are now off limits or restricted in some other way, in large part due to backlash from overuse and accidents by the untrained.
And there were some high-profile and financially devastating lawsuits against gear manufacturers, retailers and outfitters by individuals who hurt themselves by mis-utilizing equipment or venturing out beyond their skill level – juries always found for the reckless plaintiff. Kayaking is increasingly marketed as inherently easy, safe and fun. The hair on the back of my neck stands up when I read the ad copy on some of the flimsy toy boats that are flogged by big box stores (“ocean breezes” and “Future Beach Fusion” don’t belong in the same paragraph, let alone sentence).
I don’t think I am alone in worrying that increased encounters between casual kayakers and both recreational and commercial powered craft as well as escalating burden on waterway and coastal authorities in keeping tabs on all of these little boats might lead to blanket restrictions and more user fees and regulations. Don’t know what can be done about that except continue to try to educate people when we spot them straying into the danger zone.
At any rate, this has been a fascinating (and informative) exchange so far. I admit it has further increased my interest in trying out some of the sleeker solo canoes.
Still have not heard back what boat that 5’ 2", 300 lb woman who asked for my “advice” ended up buying.
now ya lost me
People are buying kayaks over canoes because they think you have to use a single blade for a canoe?
Yes, fit is so important
I constantly ran into that problem of people wanting a product that was either not going to fit them or didn’t suit what they wanted to use it for during my years working at outfitters.
Hiking and climbing boots were among the worst – every make of shoe used different lasts and it was tough to persuade people fixated on some specific model that was never going to fit their narrow heel, high instep or long toes(“my buddy has this boot and he says it’s the best” or “I want the boot Joe Rockjock used when he freeclimbed the Nose.) I still advise people not to buy boots via the internet if they can at all avoid it – and of course we all encourage people to test-paddle kayaks before buying.
And I will never forget the cringing horror of spotting one of my young shop techs attempting to wedge an extremely pear-shaped woman into one of those load cantilevering backpacks that wrapped the frame around the hips. He managed to force it into place but the angle her posterior created forced the frame top against the bag of her head and bent her over at a 30 degree angle. Then he just stood there gawking at her like a deer in the headlights until I swooped in and steered her as discreetly as I could to a more forgiving soft pack that cleared her more prominent anatomy.
Or the guy who wanted “your most expensive sleeping bag” because he had been cold on his last hunting trip to the cabin with the guys. Couldn’t talk him out of the $300 12” loft winter mountaineering down mummy bag with double draft baffles. Three weeks later he sheepishly returned to buy a 3 season Polarguard rectangular and put a “for sale” ad on the bulletin board for the down bag (which he described as a “sauna.”)
Yes, try out a good solo
Much more of an experience than the heavy old tandems that most of us experienced growing up. Quite fun, even if I haven’t spent enough time in my own.
if you can sell it, they will buy it
Same as it ever was.