My 20 lb pack canoe cost about 300 bucks to build. Wins on weight, wins on price. Paddles great. Zero effort to use. For speed and seaworthiness next build is an outrigger sailing kayak. Once you get bigger than a pack canoe you might as well add a sail. Silly kayakers paddling boats big enough to sail. Why would you do that?
I insulted pack boats, but I didn´t insult any paddlers, unlike the ones of you have hurled insults at me because that’s your way of being in denial…get over it. I´m 5´9 and weigh 180 pounds and I´ve paddled pretty much every kind of boat there is except for surf skis and SUPS.
Kayakmedic is the honest one, she gets her Rapid Fire off the water when the whitecaps appear because she knows the pack canoe is very dangerous in even mildly turbulent water.
Kayakers who have the same level of paddling skills as Kayakmedic will laugh at white caps and keep going into far worse than that.
Somebody mentioned waiting a few minutes for kayakers to repack their kayaks after the portage before they could paddle on. Hahahahahaaha, I´ve spent days waiting for open canoes because they couldn´t paddle in the wind and waves. I´ve also used my kayak to tow canoeists who couldn’t make it back to shore because of the wind and waves.
Don´t compare pack boats like the Rapid Fire to recreational kayaks, that´s just not fair. Instead, compare them to kayaks like the Deltas or the Swifts, high performance kayaks in the 13 to 16 foot range. For several years I owned a lovely 16´ Swift Bering Sea that was so much more seaworthy and functional than the Rapid Fire but I really can´t brag about that. It simply isn´t fair to compare these high performance kayaks to the low performance pack canoes.
It would be useful for some of you pack canoeists to buy a GPS. You might be astounded at how slow your boat really is over a normal day of paddling. Sure, they feel fast when you´re out there diddling around, or when you are outrunning plastic rec boats, but they aren´t really.
I forgot to mention, I´m 68 and have no trouble getting in and out of kayaks pretty much anywhere along the shore or pier or scrambling up steep embankments. I love whitewater kayaks, touring kayaks, sea kayaks. I did used to paddle canoes, my smallest was a 10´ Bert Hathaway fiberglass that I paddled and fished out of all over New England. I started camping in solo canoes, the Mad River Guide was my favorite, and I did whitewater canoes, mostly Bell Prodigy and I even did kneeling in the kayak with a single blade, but I no longer like canoes. They are just too limited and limiting.
I still don’t see a valid point within all your bluster if I consider real-life comparisons. You keep coming back to comparisons that most paddlers don’t have any need to face, because your whole focus is on water conditions that you won’t see or will almost never see in the places where pack canoes are typically used (the fact that Kim paddles one of her pack canoes on open water and needs to “sit it out” when things get rough is not such a big thing if you realize she could just as well have picked a boat with a lot more rough-water capability). You still can’t see why anyone would care about the weight savings, even though Kim made some good points about that. You still don’t understand that not everyone, certainly not on every trip, is focused on high mileage and minimal travel times, and no one here has said that’s what a pack canoe is good for, so I’m not sure who you think you are arguing that point with. To that last point, there’s great fun to be had on 10- or 15-mile trips (or even half that distance) that make use of a whole afternoon in a place that’s pretty or interesting. You don’t need a fast boat for that, and if you were ever on this site back in the days when people often discussed drag in relation to speed for various boats, or if you have ever looked into that topic yourself, you already know that anyone who simply says that “x” boat has a faster top speed so therefore it must be easier to paddle at moderate speeds when compared to a well designed boat that’s slower, will be wrong just about every time. Putzing along at 3 to 4 mph in a boat that has an unusually low requirement of paddler’s effort is a joy in itself that is not diminished by the fact that most boats with that characteristic feel like slugs if you try pushing them faster than their practical top speed.
Your anecdotes don’t impress me either, because again, they are individual situations involving paddlers of unspecified skill levels. I can honestly say that I’ve needed to tow kayakers in rough and windy conditions with one of my rowboats, but I would never claim that those instances carry some sort of broad meaning that other paddlers ought to pay attention to. By the same token, in all my years of paddling I’ve never seen anyone in a canoe that needed to be towed, and does that mean anything? Heck no. It’s fun to point out though, that on one trip down the Wisconsin river, three of us faced headwinds that were often sustained at 30 to 40 mph with frequent gusts to 50 mph (that’s what the National Weather Service said), often causing thick clouds of sand from the sandbars to go floating by at great speed and to a height of more than twice that of the treetops on the riverbank. One guy was in a kayak, I was in a rowboat, and another guy was in a solo canoe. The guy in the canoe had the most trouble, but the difference wasn’t night and day, and he certainly didn’t need rescuing. That guy (he goes by the name of PJC on here) is a good paddler, but again, so what? It was just an interesting situation that proves nothing, other than the fact that your examples carry no broad meaning either.
guidebookboy you are absolutely right, i hereby withdraw all my statements. I was absolutely wrong on all counts and I apologize. You got me. Have a good day.
@willowleaf said:
Such boats do exist and I currently own two of them: Pakboat folding kayaks. All of Pakboat’s kayaks have a removable deck (seals around the gunwales with heavy duty velcro and ends are secured under fold over flaps) and most can be paddled with or without the deck. Super easy to load with gear. They also weigh half what an equivalent hardshell kayak of similar dimensions does.
You are well-recognized as an advocate of folders. I pay attention to your posts and comments on the subject because I think there’s some real potential for me to like them for certain types of trips. It might even get me back into Algonquin, though maybe not with all the people flooding through there now.
A while back I even set up a Kijiji alert with a few keywords related to folders, but alas there don’t seem to be many around here in the used market. I’m not sure I’d want to take the risk of purchasing something like that new, only to find that it wasn’t for me.
I still have an eye out, and will give it a chance at my first opportunity.
Been awhile since I was on P.net, but rivers are flooded and I can’t paddle my canoe, so here I am. Funny how some folks seem to be more interested in debating more than talking about paddling? Up in the BWCAW and on the rivers I paddle the canoe is the best boat for the job. But I defer to the OP, he obviously knows everything there is to know.
1 Like
@wildernesswebb said:
Been awhile since I was on P.net, but rivers are flooded and I can’t paddle my canoe, so here I am. Funny how some folks seem to be more interested in debating more than talking about paddling? Up in the BWCAW and on the rivers I paddle the canoe is the best boat for the job. But I defer to the OP, he obviously knows everything there is to know.
Funny when there is TOO much water one can’t paddle. Too little water and one can’t paddle.
I miss Rendezvous this year but I did wonk up my knee… I’ve hence been relegated to that useless RapidFire! I miss being in my WildFire.
I love my canoes best when I paddle them, and where I paddle them! I love my kayaks best when and where I paddle them! That pretty well sums up what’s best for me after many years of paddling many different watercraft. The OP’s analysis may apply to him that’s fine with me, but as far as it being correct for me not at all. No need to argue the point as paddling my canoes and kayaks is way more enjoyable.
1 Like
Sparky961: I spend a lot of time in the summer in upstate NY, always with one of more of my kayaks along. If I happen to be up there when you pass through on your big circuit this Summer I’d be happy to meet you so you could check them out. (side note relevant to transport and shuttles: I can haul 7 kayaks with my small Mazda station wagon . My own hardshell and rigid SOF kayaks go on the roof rack, 3 bag boats stashed in their duffels in the rear hatch, and 2 kayaks belonging to others on the trailer.)
It is indeed difficult for people to get to test paddle folders since few dealers stock them. I was lucky in that I got my first one in 2002 from one of the few Feathercraft brick and mortar dealers (Outpost in Holland, Michigan) and later visited Feathercraft’s factory and HQ, that was at the time on Granville Island in Vancouver, BC, where they generously loaned me a demo Wisper kayak and paddle (which I later bought) and let me take off from the dock that was a stone’s throw from their front door and test paddle the boat for a whole afternoon.
I’ve thought over the years of offering to be a traveling demonstrator for the manufacturers of folding boats, for a small stipend or commission on sales – I have a small motorhome and kayak trailer and imagined going from launch site to launch site, preaching the “bag boat” gospel! Alas, the same year that I retired and would have been available for such an gig, 2 of the major makers went under! Oh, well.
I paddle kayaks, often in groups including canoes. The point in favor of canoes that I have not seen in this thread is: For the most part, canoes need less water to avoid dragging bottom. Will I replace my 'yaks with canoes? No, but I might add a canoe to the fleet.
1 Like
I wannabe paddling a Placid Shadow. I paddled my CD Vision 130 most recently. I’ll probably paddle the Bell Magic next. I lack boat species loyalty. I still haven’t warmed up to SUPs, though I did buy a paddle to try in my canoes.
@Headwaters2 said:
guidebookboy you are absolutely right, i hereby withdraw all my statements. I was absolutely wrong on all counts and I apologize. You got me. Have a good day.
Glad you realized the error of your ways, but I’d say skip the pack boat and go back to a canoe you can paddle with a single blade.
@eckilson said:
@Headwaters2 said:
guidebookboy you are absolutely right, i hereby withdraw all my statements. I was absolutely wrong on all counts and I apologize. You got me. Have a good day.Glad you realized the error of your ways, but I’d say skip the pack boat and go back to a canoe you can paddle with a single blade.
Which would be a 46 inch bent for the RapidFire… a pack canoe… With an adjustable seat.
Leaving the pot now.
Sheesh- any reason the OPer just couldn’t start their day without intentionally starting a fight? Now I know why I had skipped this one.just
@Celia said:
Sheesh- any reason the OPer just couldn’t start their day without intentionally starting a fight? Now I know why I had skipped this one.just
Well, gee, it’s tough when you know everything because you have to spend so much of your time educating everyone else…
@kayamedic said:
Which would be a 46 inch bent for the RapidFire… a pack canoe… With an adjustable seat.
Leaving the pot now.
For me it’s a 58 inch straight shaft in my Wildfire, but to each his/her own. Don’t leave the pot now - how could you not want to banter with a guy who thinks a 13 foot thermoformed plastic kayak is great, and a Placid RapidFire is a pig.
@eckilson said:
@kayamedic said:
Which would be a 46 inch bent for the RapidFire… a pack canoe… With an adjustable seat.
Leaving the pot now.For me it’s a 58 inch straight shaft in my Wildfire, but to each his/her own. Don’t leave the pot now - how could you not want to banter with a guy who thinks a 13 foot thermoformed plastic kayak is great, and a Placid RapidFire is a pig.
How tall ARE you?? Geez I’d dislocate my shoulder with a 58 inch even in my WildFire.
The 46 fits me just fine in the RF. I am 5’5". Now the funny thing is we were in the mangrove tunnels in the Glades where double blades are nothing but snake catchers and my hubby 6’+ in the RF with this 46 inch blade.
And he said he was just fine. Or maybe that’s just a man attitude… Its fine even when it isn’t
Its time to boil some homarus americanus in the pot.
Amazing fact that the fur trappers/explorers in North America were able to cross the entire continent in canoes (not kayaks), but maybe they only travelled on calm, clear days, and they must have portaged around those nasty Great Lakes.
Accurate Voyageur47…think their canoes were of the (name?) category…the ~20’ trucks of the waterways. They did paddle the Great Lakes, and rested when the wind won the battle…however it was their hours of the day(early AMs) that guaranteed good conditions, and paddling relatively close to shoreline landmarks and catching the bays every so often would guarantee respite from wind.
The Pack canoe is merely a manifestation of an recreational industry but its advantages in carrying things, from advanced manufacturing’s ability to reduce weight, while bushwacking into remote waters is significant. The fact that many are dependent upon the weather is mainly a factor of the paddlers’ lack of paddling skill. The canoe is meant to carry stuff. Its use within the recreational industry is merely a choice of leisure time. The native peoples of interior Canada/Labrador and Northeast America were using the canoe as a vehicle for commercial business and transportation in the interior of the continent, as Voyageur47 mentioned.
When the early inhabitants of America bushwacked into ponds and bogs in Maine and what is now the Northeast in the 18th, 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries to pursue flyfishing for food(native brooktrout) and recreational sport the portages were quite lengthy as roads were sparse. Recreational canoes aren’t about going from here to there in the shortest amount of time and the act of portaging a kayak into a wilderness pond, where wind isn’t a major issue, for a day will never approach the number of canoes used to do so, out of convenience. As previously mentioned…each has its place. The kayak’s design is much more useful in more dense water such as saltwater as it is IN the water more than ON it. A transportation tool is used more efficiently in the manner of how its design features dictate. Besides when you truely develop your skills with one craft far earlier in life than you do with another type of craft…and it does what’s needed and you have fun with it, why change.