Are you questioning or saying?
I’m saying: The Epic Active Touring Flutters when you put any kind of pressure on it.
It is not the paddler either since I have spoken with several others that find the same fault with it.
I can only assume that Barton would say it is shaped properly.
Cheers,
jackL
i switched
I no longer use a heavy paddle and even swithed to a single blade for the obvious reason listed below.
Current Paddle Weight ='s 7 ozs
Former Paddle Weight ='ed 30 oz.
Difference ='s 23 oz. or ALMOST a pound and a half
I paddle about a 50 stroke rate per minute which =‘s 350 ozs I lift every minute ( which is over 21 pounds of weight per minute) Now compare my former paddle at 30 oz which equals- 1,500 oz per MINUTE or OVER 93 POUNDS per minute. A difference of 72+ pounds per minute
I sometime go out and paddle 10 hour days which would equal= 12,600 pounds of weight during the day I now lift compared to 55,800 pounds using my old paddle or a difference of 21.6 tons more weight… So you tell me who’ going to be more tired the guy lifting 21 tons more weight than me or myself? Or another way of looking at it. It would be like me shoveling 21 tons of dirt in my year over 10 hours then going to paddle my now lightweight paddle and have it be the SAME amount of weight.
Go light or die!
nm
my two cents
I have a rather cheap spare paddle. it used to be my main one, then I upgraded to a much MUCH lighter Bending Branches Impression. I LOVE it. It feels like I don’t even have a paddle in my hands.
As for all those saying that a few onces isn’t much. First off, you are always carrrying your arms. that is a normal strain for the muscles. adding anything is starting to use more energy. Try wearing ankle weights to work. I am young and fit. I will wear three pounds for most of the day. It doesn’t kill me, but I KNOW when I take it off.
Now that it is winter, it is training time. It doesn’t matter if you are using a 24oz kayak paddle or a 3 pound pound, use soemthing big and heavy. I use a 9 pound standard weight bar. Just something I had laying around. I get on a stool and “paddle”. I aim for about 30 min straight through. It is hard. I also have some lighter bars that I use. But that saves any problems of weight. I can’t complain that my old really cheap utility paddle is heavy, it isn’t NEAR a barbell.
Liveoutside
P.S. Who makes the BEST beaver tail canoe paddles?
Lightest paddle you own?
What is/was it?
I’ve yet to see anyone upgrade to a significantly lighter paddle (assuming decent quality construction and function) and regret it, or wish for more weight. Exception being specific use paddles and spares (where the heavier paddle ends up the vast majority of the time).
I had no trouble swinging a heavy metal/plastic rec paddle at first. Then my glass Werner San Juan seemed light (was probably about what your paddle weighs) for about 2000 miles. It would seem big and heavy now. Not too heavy to comfortably use - just unnecessarily heavy when compared to my current paddles.
Maybe I’m just spoiled - and I’m certainly lazy (which at least favors efficiency) - but maybe I’ve also found tools that work better for me. I paddle alone most of the time so I’m certainly not buying carbon paddles to look cool or impress the ladies. My next paddle will most likely be homemade - so it’s not about price/image. It will also be similar in weight to what I use now, or I won’t be happy with it.
beavertail paddles??
wow that was a wierd segue. personally i think that Grey Owl paddles makes the best beavertails. they may be mainstream and popular but they are amongst the most well designed, balanced and symetric paddles going.
now back to paddleweight…
Barton would also likely…
… tilt the blade ever so slightly (cant) and use a bit (or more) of wing stroke component (flare) without even thinking about it - either of which would stop the alternating flux (flutter) between the dual vortices shedding off the blade created by a straight euro pull, and make one of the vortices dominant, smoothing things out.
Same reason a GP is canted (which it naturally wants to do and is not something you have to force), and why most euro paddlers used to more perpendicular blade angle (especially if their EPs had dihedral) complain of flutter with GP in the beginning.
Wings and GPs when used correctly shed a single vortex. Euro can too, but many have flat faces - or added dihedral - which sort of forces dual vortex shedding. You can still use very slight technique changes to lightly favor one vortex over the other enough to remove flutter.
Flutter issues are to paddles what tracking issues are to hulls. There’s usually a get acquainted period. It should not continue to be a problem.
100% technique issue. Yes you can design blade with less tendency to flutter, but there is always a trade-off. Building something in to make a perpendicular blade less likely to flutter is just like using rudder or skeg for tracking (instead of trim as intended). I’m not saying it’s “bad” - just one way to approach things - and so limited.
You can try to make the paddle eliminate flutter, or have the paddler do it. Net efficiency (loss) is probably similar, in a test tank. Since the human body prefers to move in arcs and at angles anyway, why design paddles for straight and perpendicular pulls?
Herein lie the real reasons the wing is better for speed, and the GP less taxing for touring, compared to the Euro.
ok, ok, i get the math
but i am not sure that the linear relationship as expressed is how it works ergonomically.
people always give that explanation but can anyone out there (Phd’s where are you) who can substantiate that rationale?
My paddle history
I’ve been using a Cobra paddle–nylon/fiberglass shaft/plastic blades since I started paddling five years ago. I admit, it’s a war club. I bought an Aquabound carbon fiber AMT two years ago which was very light, but had 6" wide blades which I didn’t like. I like the big fat whitewater-size blades so I kept using the Cobra. I use an Adventure Technology “AT3 Edge” for whitewater, which is a carbon proprietary layup. It’s kinda heavy for carbon but VERY tough.
I handled some Werner carbon touring paddles in the store and was amazed at the light weight. I was also concerned that one of the paddle blades was cracked in half (still on the rack.) So I decided to snag the Werner glass paddle (two weeks ago), slightly heavier than the Ikelos, but a bit more substantial and (hopefully) able to withstand more abuse.
I’ve paddled up to 10 hours, 35 miles with the Cobra without feeling the burden of it’s weight (probably close to 3lb-range.) I’m 40 and do 4-6 hours of weight-resistence workout/week, so I’m in pretty good shape.
I guess I’ll get that old club out a year from now and see how it feels.
Substantiate? Sure
Anyone using a lighter paddle can!
I really don’t get people’s resistance to this. It’s as simple as physics gets. Yes, there is a lot more to the entire paddling equation - but NONE of that changes the basic equation that moving less mass requires less work! ALWAYS.
Forget doing math - just try both & see
Please forgive this solo canoer for busting in here, but I’m sure the principle is pretty much the same for any style of paddling. This spring at the Ozark Rendezvous there was one day in particular where I got quite fatigued near the end of the trip, since it was my first significant amount of time in a boat that year, and the wind had given us quite a battle all day long. When using my normal cruising paddle, which is fairly light, I simply felt like I was tired and ready for the trip to end. When rocky shallows forced me to switch to my whitewater paddle, it was only a matter of a couple of minutes before I realized I’d have been a total wreck if that was the only paddle I’d brought along, and I couldn’t wait for river conditions to allow me to switch back to the cruising paddle again. The difference between these two paddles didn’t matter a bit to me when we started out that day, but at the end, that heavy-duty paddle had become the proverbial warclub! Bottom line, by the end of a long day on the water, paddle weight WILL make a difference. For puttering around on typical daytrips (and this is coming from someone who typically gets teased by other daytrip paddlers for always being the guy that says “c’mon, lets not turn back yet”), paddle weight won’t matter much, but for really long days on the water, I believe that you will never regret having as light a paddle as you feel you can afford.
Nobody says it ain’t so
– Last Updated: Jan-05-06 11:29 PM EST –
Here is the main question in the original post:
How much do you value ultra-lightness in your paddles? Given all the "itis's" that people out there are suffering, do you put stock in getting the lightest paddle available?
Of course the lighter paddle will be easier to move, all else being equal. Whether the reduced weight is "valued" is another question, because lighter almost always equals more expensive. With paddle blades, lighter can also mean more fragile (it is, in the case of my two paddles which share the identical shaft but have different blade materials).
In my case, using the heavier paddle for day trips does not induce any "itis's" OR reduce paddling speed, so I save the lighter (more fragile and more expensive) paddle for long trips, where I want to save as much energy as possible.
It's not strictly a question of physics, but of practicality. That's why individual perceptions of "value" will vary so much.
Hi JBV … so have I : )
Maybe we should set an exact time instead of playing phone tag inbetween time away from phone.
You’ve been reading too much!
I disagree.
If a paddler has to change his technique in order to suit the paddle or suit the speed he wants to attain with that paddle then I am saying there must be something wrong with that paddle.
Pat assures me his paddles won’t flutter.
Maybe if he reads this and has the time he will chime in here.
cheers,
jackL
I doubt lightweight paddles make much
– Last Updated: Jan-06-06 10:58 AM EST –
difference in preventing joint and connective tissue injuries, especially when you are talking about a difference of just 5 ounces. I would think the injuries have less to do with the amount of weight borne by the joints than by overextension of the joint beyond its normal radius. However, I have noticed much less muscle fatigue since I have upgraded my main paddle to carbon. Of course, that was a major upgrage from a 54.5 oz Harmony Estuary with an aluminum shaft to a 27.5 oz Aquabound Stingray, all carbon.
There will be more flutter with lighter
paddles at first. I noticed flutter when I first dropped nearly 25 oz going from aluminum to carbon. I also noticed I was overpaddling, so actually when you make the shift to a lighter paddle, you may be at first MORE prone to injury, unless you are constantly monitoring your technique. It took me just a few days to get used to the carbon, stop overpaddling, control flutter, and then I was fine. It’s the paddler, not the paddle. A good opportunity to brush up your technique.
False theory.
"My point is that it would be just as difficult to hold your arms out straight for hours as it would be to hold your arms out straight with a few ounces of weight in your hand. The few ounces are INSIGNIFICANT in relation to the weight of your arms. "
Jeez, you obviously never actually tried it!!!
Go home tonight and hold out a 5 oz weight with your arm out and see how long you last. THEN hold your arm out WITHOUT the weight.
You may have trouble believing in me enough to even bother to try. But if you do try, you’ll find the difference is indeed SIGNIFICANT!
There goes your entire arguement. Good logic with bad assumption == bad conclusion!
"At first"
exactly.
REASON
I love the way you put it, “within reason”!
I’ve tried carbon and I’ve tried fiberglass. I found them not much different, despite the lighter weight of carbon. It seems, at least to me, going to the “lightest” of light paddles are not gaining as much benefit. I suspect there might be a diminishing return of investment when paying through the nose for the lightest of light paddles.
But when I fly away on vacation, I rent boat and their rental paddle. I can tell it’s HEAVY. I don’t enjoy the trip nearly as much. So I now resort to bringing my own paddle even when I’m renting boats.
I must say the shape (and maybe even swing weight) of a paddle is equally, if not more, important as the weight itself. So, when searching for paddles, one can only compare the weight of paddles with the same design, NOT two paddle of different designs. Otherwise, one may find the heavier paddle feels better than the lighter one. But then, one would be comparing apples and oranges.
lighter paddle
If you are confident that you are in kayaking for the long haul, and will be paddling for many years, I think a lighter paddle is a good investment. As an analogy, wih a cheap pair of binoculars you’ll see as many birds,but with a good pair of binoulars you will have considerably less eye fatigue if used day after day, or all day. A lighter paddle will show its blessings over many hours, or over the course of paddling all day , every day, for a week or more . If your paddling is confined to 2-3 hours on weekends , it might not make as great a difference.
Knowing what I know now, I would have bought a lighter, more expensive paddle from the get-go, because I would have saved money in the long run. I started with a $40 paddle, almost immediately jeyttisoned it for an 80$ paddle, the next year got a 170$ paddle, two years later got a very expensive carbon paddle, although I was lucky to find one in a great off-season sale.
My carbon Epic active touring blade has been extremely durable. I am not gentle on my equipment, and it has held up very well.
I find that the greatest benefit of an expensive carbon paddle with foam core(eg Epic, Werner kalliste, Ikelos etc) is its buoyancy rather than its weight. Bracing and sculling with a carbon foam core paddle etc is , for me, noticebly more luxurious than with a heavier paddle.
foam core
i love my foam core Epic but also love my regular non core Big Spoons, which is heavier by 5 ounzes. while i like the positive bouyancy i don’t find it plays any role in my skulling high brace. i can do it equally well with either paddles.
i can’t really put my finger on what about the foam core i like or what makes it better than not.