paddlesports quick physics

Woah, too much to read for me, but…

– Last Updated: Jul-03-09 8:42 PM EST –

...I DO have a specific question. Maybe I could reach the bottom of this if I read everything here but that ain't gonna happen.

It seems there's a lot of stuff here about whether there is such a thing as a pivot point and whether that point moves depending on your speed. Briefly looking through all the stuff here, it seems everyone, (everyone but Clarion that is and maybe I missed someone else) is talking about a pivot point while turning. What about a "center of balance" against a perpendicular thrust. THIS is something that any good canoer sees happen all the time, and UNLIKE what happens in a steered turn, I don't think relative motion or frame of reference has any relevance here.

Here's the deal: If a symmetrical canoe is stationary in the water and you want to make it go exactly sideways without changing its orientation, you need a force perpendicular to its long axis applied midway between the front and rear. On the other hand, IF that canoe is moving forward, straight through the water, and you wish to add a sideways component to that motion, again without changing the boat's heading (orientation), the perpendicular force must be applied at some distance forward of center. The faster you go, the farther forward that force must be applied. If you allow the boat's forward motion to gradually drift to a stop WHILE applying a perpendicular force, the location where that force must be applied to prevent the boat from changing heading must be steadily moved back toward center. If you don't adjust the point at which the perpendicular force is applied according to the boat's speed, you won't succeed in maintaining a constant orientation of the boat's axis.

I had always heard that the reason for this is that a boat underway has more pressure applied to the surface of the hull forward of center than rearward of center, and that makes good sense. Also, if this were not the case, a rudder would be equally effective at the bow as at the stern, but actual practice proves otherwise. A rudder is much more effective and efficient (less loss of energy by induced drag, because less steering force needs to be generated for the same effect) when mounted to the stern than when mounted at the bow. This is also why when surfing a wave, the stern is what tends to swing sideways if you aren't careful. The bow will never take off as if it has a mind of its own when surfing, but the stern 'gets loose' and will do funky things when the boat's travel speed through the water (which is the same phenomenon whether surfing against the current on a standing wave in a river or on the downwind face of a wind-driven wave on a lake or ocean) gets a lot higher than the speed for which a boat is practically designed.

Am I missing something? Am I talking about something completely different? I know I'm talking about the same thing that Clarion was, but his statement didn't get picked up in the discussion, it seems.

Just read article and watch video

– Last Updated: Jul-04-09 12:55 AM EST –

A skim of your post seems to me like you get it.
Have a look at these to confirm that, expand on it, and likely add some more to you understanding:

http://www.cpslc.com/understanding_the_pivot_point.pdf

http://ohlinthermotech.com/pivotpoint/

Note the consistent use of the word "apparent" in conjunction with "pivot point", and how that point doesn't always move as the so called rules about it say it should, or even stay within the confines of the vessel!

sources


I don’t have a bibliography. I believe the published source that most informed me about the peripatetic pivot point was Hooyers “Behavior and Handling of Ships”, studied perhaps two decades ago. I have learned from other sources, both verbal and published, before and since then, but I cannot take time now to build such a bibliography. A new and valuable addition to my knowledge has come from the article I learned about here in the last day or so, and from comments and speculations from various paddlers.



Note that I have never before learned about the peripatetic pivot point or related subjects from paddlesports participants or professionals, but I know that those subjects are relevant to canoeing and kayaking. And that is what has motivated me to offer what I know on the subject, when the opportunity is presented.

General comment and re gbguy’s question
I’m the one who cited Clyde’s article and a maritime engineering text on the subject of the so-called peripatetic pivot point in the weathercocking thread.



I am pleased to see this physics discussion has further developed while I was away for two weeks attempting to paddle in the Adirondacks during a monsoon. Greyak’s links to the Cauvier article and video on the “apparent pivot point” (APP) were most enlightening. What was displeasing and unenlightening was the personal attack tone in a few of the posts.



As to guideboatguy’s question about sideslipping a non-turning canoe, wherein you move the hanging draw sternward as the velocity slows, I think that is explained in Cauvier’s distinction of the APP from the Center of Lateral Resistance (COLR). If the canoe is not turning (not pivoting), there will be no APP. However, the physical COLR of a non-pivoting boat will move forward as the boat increases speed. Hence, the COLR will move sternward back toward the center of gravity as the boat slows down.



According to Cauvier, the position of the COLR depends on three things: the center of gravity, the center of underwater surface area, and the pressure fields (bow wave, stern sub-pressure) under headway. Since the first two factors are fixed, the COLR shifts forward in a moving but non-turning boat primarily if not exclusively because of the bow wave pressure field.



Therefore, to parallel sideslip a moving boat, the draw must be placed aside the COLR, which will be abow of solo paddler sitting at the CG. As the boat slows, the COLR shifts constantly astern toward the CG, and hence the sideslipping draw must be sliced proportionately sternward to avoid inducing a turn.



That’s how I interpret Cauvier.



The forward-shifting COLR – not the forward-shifting APP – may also be the explanation for the greater turning arm leverage of the stern paddler in a tandem canoe. The “peripatetic” APP is not the cause of this phenomenon, but is merely the resultant effect relative to the water surface.

Cauthier’s article
Thank you, Glenn, for referencing my article on “The Peripatetic Pivot Point” in the thread on weathercocking.



I believe that my comprehension has been improved greatly by the Cauthier article and video, and I agree with your interpretation. I never believed that the peripatetic pivot point was the cause of how a vessel rotates, but I also never studied nor wrote about, the constantly changing, complex forces that do cause such rotation, and otherwise act on an underway vessel. The Cauthier article, on the other hand, focuses on, and begins to explain the forces which do cause such rotation, and also seeks to link rotational movement with lateral displacement. Understanding those forces and integrating their effect on both lateral and rotational movement will help much more in intelligent control of a displacement boat of any size and propulsion than merely noting an often ignored or misunderstood manifestation of those forces. That is all my article did. While I may not take time to rewrite my article now, I will certainly, and without delay, add a reference and a link to the Cauthier article to it.



I also agree with your criticism of the unfortunate tone that quickly and steadily developed in the thread following my post. To those who did not contribute to that tone, and were distracted from the positive possibilities of that discussion, I regret and apologize for my contribution to that unnecessary, toxic atmosphere.

Sideslips and GUTPP

– Last Updated: Jul-07-09 5:59 PM EST –

I have also suggested paddlers google the PPPoint because is usefully, if inaccurately, explains differences in forward and backward skidded turns. I apologize.

While reading Vogel on fluid dynamics, Hooyer, Saunders, Chase, Cauvier, Winters and Winter on ship handling to try to come up with a Grand Unified Theory of the Skidded Turn, I noticed a reference to sideslips.

To move a solo canoe/kayak with headway diagonally without torque, the "sweet spot" to place the hanging draw, blade open at ~40dg, for a drawing sideslip is invariably aft the paddlers body. Exact placement is boat specific and more repeatable with a vertical paddleshaft located close to the hull.

For a prying sideslip that moves the hull diagonally away from the paddle placement, the blade is at a closing angle of attack, ~ 40dg, the sweet sport is well forward, ~ abeam the front thwart of a solo canoe or the front of the kayak cockpit. Again, exact placement is boat specific and further complicated by
variation in placement of front thwarts and cockpit sizes.

Obviously we do not have separate pivot points for drawing and prying sideslips. One could argue that perpendiculars from the paddle blades ~cross at the paddlers belt buckle, roughly approximating the center of lateral resistance in the simple shapes canoes and kayaks come in.

SST, SideSlip Theory, becomes more interesting when lifting the side of opposition to improve diagonal flow under the hull. One can also move the blade forward or aft to induce yaw. One can initiate sideslips with a quick little draw or pry. And, of course, there are eight sideslips: forward pry and draw, cross forward pry and draw, reverse and cross reverse.

fly in ointment
I find the pivot point can move ALOT when doing the SS or pryslip. you can create some YAW momentum and then counteract with blade placement fwd or aft AND at different blade angles than say 40 degrees.



here’s a cool experiment. paddle solo kayak or canoe fwd to 2-3 knots. jamb a vertical blade next to hull. pry trailing edge away. slide paddle fwd or aft to pry boat directly sideways. You see how much YAW affects the PP!



steve (who just HAD to comment on this waaaay too long post!)

Yep, as soon as one thing changes…
… everything changes. Only makes sense.

holy cow
Can I borrow someone’s thesaurus?

That jives
with my experience. For a static draw sideslip to the onside, paddle blade goes in initially just aft of the hip, or thereabouts, and slip is facilitated by raising the side of opposition by heeling toward the offside.



For static pry sideslip to the offside blade goes in ahead of the body at or in front of knee and is facilitated by heeling toward the onside.



But here’s a question. For a pure static draw sideslip that does not change the heading, as the boat slows the blade needs to be brought forward (maintaining the same blade angle) to avoid yaw. Why?



One would think if the pivot point moves aft as the boat slows, the blade would need to come back, no?

Static draw sideslip yaw

– Last Updated: Jul-09-09 2:29 AM EST –

"For a pure static draw sideslip that does not change the heading, as the boat slows the blade needs to be brought forward (maintaining the same blade angle) to avoid yaw. Why?"

If you could do it at constant speed it would begin to tun as well, but there's a kicker that can explain the increase in yaw as you slow too. This is sort of both at once:

The boat creates a pressure differential as it moves sideways AND a boat generated side current as some of the water is both pushed ahead and dragged along behind. When moving forward (even slowly) the COLR is forward a bit and the lever arms unbalanced so you get some turning action (basically your paddle is adding a lateral force much as in a side wind). Also as the bow is entering clean water the rest is in the boat generated side current, and this will also act to turn the boat. As you lose forward momentum this mass of water both catches up to the hull and has more time to act on it - so more turning forces...

See article/video I linkede below. Covers all of this.

well now…
1. you don’t need heel or edge to ss. In fact since edging makes the boat easier to TURN, NO edge works best. Put your skeg down and keep the boat flat. EZiest SS in the world.



2. the reason the paddle needs to move is the pivot point changes. you need to move blade in order to slip sideways and NOT turn it into a stern or bow rudder (a turning maneuver)



steve

Agree

– Last Updated: Jul-07-09 10:05 PM EST –

I agree and will echo Clyde - I apologize for my contributions to the toxic tone in prior posts. I'm glad to see this discussion is back on track - it's too interesting to degenerate.

I find the canoe paddlers comments particularly interesting - it seems they deal in sideslips, prys and draws much more than kayakers, so have a more intimate acquaintance with pivoting behavior.

PS - haven't been able to get a look at Hooyer yet, work is interfering with my hobby again...

Re: too much to read

– Last Updated: Jul-09-09 10:07 AM EST –

Your comment, guideboatguy, and clarion's, were among the best of many that focused and continue to throw valuable light on the subject. I don't think they were ignored. Bottom line, they were the only type of comments that really matter.

Pressure is force per unit area (pounds per square inch, if you will). A little higher pressure on all the square inches in the bow, for example, adds up to a lot of force on the bow. If the pressure is a little higher on the starboard bow than on the port (or if the pressure is higher on the port quarter than on the starboard quarter) there is a lot of force tending to cause (or continue, or accelerate) a yaw to the left. In fact, a continued steady (unbalanced) force will cause an acceleration, not merely continued movement.

A slightly higher momentary waterline on one side of the bow (again, for an example) causes a higher pressure on every square inch of that portion of the hull, from the top of the momentary waterline mark right down to the keel. Unbalanced forces cause movement, and a continued unbalanced force causes acceleration. (The acceleration can be either a change of speed, or an increase or decrease in the rate of turn, or both.)

One thing to be careful about is the tendency to think about moving one end of the boat, while forgetting about the other. It's pretty uncommon to move one end without moving the other. I have found that a way to counteract this "forgetting about" the other end of the boat, is to remind myself that the boat is not a rubber snake, it's stiff and solid. When I move the bow, the stern moves also, and vice versa. And it doesn't usually (except in the case of a perfect side slip) move in the same direction with the same amplitude. And that's why we discuss and consider the pivot point at times in boat handling.

Elsewhere, I have written about how a bowthruster works. A bowthruster moves a vessel very differently than a rope attached to the bow, with tension in the rope, moves the same vessel. (That's the simulation that Cauthier employs.) The forces involved are entirely different. But beyond that, a bowthruster apparently does not work as many people (including me) have assumed it works. It does not work on the principle of equal and opposite reaction to a protracted thrust. It works because it's a pump, displacing water from one side of the vessel to the other, thus raising the waterline on one side, while lowering it on the other. Consequently, the pressure on one side of the hull is greater than on the other side, and the resulting imbalance of force causes the ship to move. Apparently, the observed movement cannot be accounted for by the thrust available from the installed engine/propeller.

And herein is an excellent example of how the peripatetic pivot point does not explain the forces (although it certainly provides important observable clues). The forces, if fully understood and quantified, explain the pivot point.

A bow thruster is most effective when the vessel is making no way through the water. When the vessel begins to move ahead, the thruster begins to lose effectiveness. This can be "explained" by recognizing that the pivot point moves forward as a vessel gains headway, and the bow thruster (which, nevertheless, remains well forward of the forward moving pivot point) loses leverage as a result.

But there is a fly in the soup. The bow thruster, for all practical purposes, becomes completely without effect as the vessel gathers headway of over just a few knots. That wouldn't be the case of a force applied by tension in a line attached to the bow, or if the movement while dead in the water was due to the equal and opposite reaction to the thrust of the motor and propeller. I think that the water slipping past the hull has two critical effects. First, it disrupts the pumping action by obstructing the inlet and outlet of the pump and causing cavitation and turbulence. Second (and probably most important) the mass water movement "washes away" the unequal water line levels and pressures, caused by the thruster, that exist when the mass of water is not rapidly moving relative to the hull. I would guess that either the waterline differences between the starboard and port bow sections disappear, or that any remaining waterline differences between starboard and port become manifest along the entire length of the vessel, not just the bow, as the ship gathers significant headway. Or both. In any case, a bow (or stern) thruster at full power will have virtually no effect on a vessel underway full ahead. It's not because the pivot point has become nothing but an illusion. It's because the forces on the hull produced by the thruster have diminished significantly.

Saying that a vessel underway has no pivot point when it has no rotational motion is like saying that an object has no color when there is no visible spectrum radiation impinging on it. It's true enough, but turning the lights off will not remove the attributes that result in the object appearing the same color when the same lights are turned back on. Similarly, it can be very handy to identify and anticipate, while you are underway, where the pivot point of your boat will be when different forces are applied to and experienced by the hull.

Obviously, thrusters are not going to be mounted in canoes and kayaks. Still, the physics and hydrodynamics and statics involved in the movement of displacement vessels is irrespective of the size of the vessel. And, as Cauthier's article and Hooyer's text (and Melville's studies, and the various interpretations of what transpired aboard the Bounty and the Endurance have shown) we may as well not ignore what we can learn if it might help.

There is speculation on my part in this, about the thruster. The dynamic forces involving a boat maneuvering in water are indeed complex as well as rapidly and constantly changing. Steady state conditions on a vessel in motion are difficult enough to completely describe, let alone quantify. The precise description and quantification of non-steady-state conditions are orders of magnitude more difficult to accomplish. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, or that we should abandon our imperfect attempts to understand and communicate, or abandon all simple, practical devices that help us get that boat where we want to go, until the "last word", and all the rigorous scientific analyses and equations have finally arrived.

Yes, this has become the Nicene Council
thread.



Dogmaticus

"Understanding The Pivot Point"
For those interested in what actually goes on with turns/weatherhelm vs a simplistic and often fallible rule of thumb:



http://www.cpslc.com/understanding_the_pivot_point.pdf



If you prefer, a video:



http://ohlinthermotech.com/pivotpoint/

RE: Planing
http://paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1142117



In case you missed it the first time.

Reformation
See revised doctrine via links below. L

Clyde, tell me how this works.
I don’t paddle tandem down rivers, just single, more on that later. Let’s say you are in grade 3 going down a 200 meter rapid around a bend with a big pool at the base. Since there are 2 distinct moves I need to make before and after the bend, my attitude is going to be pointed towards the move I need to make before the bend, ie, getting set up, leaned well downstream, then as I go through the bend, I want to be pointed towards the the next move. Usually, when getting set up I am rarely pointed straight down current. I am often pointed 20-30-45s towards the side I want to go and I lean downstream. That doesn’t even count grabbing the backwash of an eddy or hole to be ferrying downstreams backwards maybe 45s to one side or another. Where is my peripatetic pivot point in all of that? What if I move my seat forward one inch, within the manufacturers recommended guidelines, or, move it back an inch to account for more legroom?



As far as who chooses the bow or stern position the times I’ve chosen the stern was because I could actually see over the bow paddler. Take a look at the latest tandem K2 design, the Jackson Kayak Dynamic Duo. The bow paddler position is notably smaller. That design would forever relegate sizeable people to the stern position. You should enter that question on boatertalk.com if you want more feedback on who is paddling bow or stern and why.



Dogmaticus

what happened to all the posts

– Last Updated: Jul-10-09 12:54 AM EST –

What happened to all the posts - this thread seems to have shrunk by about half, LOL.

(Word to the wise - if you use the "reply to" option on someone's post, they can delete your contribution by deleting their own. If you want to make your post more survivable, reply to the base thread, or one of your own posts that replies to the base, and then reference what the other person said in your text.)



EDIT - Of course, sometimes deletion is a good thing. I wasn't really following this thread closely enough to know what was going on, so if people were just getting nasty then good riddance. I just noticed the post count plunged, and I remembered that some relatively new people had been posting in it, so I thought I'd offer the tip above in case they lost anything in a spiteful deletion. I remember being pretty annoyed the first time that happened to me.