Paddling Canoes in the salt water

Hi Y’all,
As a sea kayaker for 25+ years, I am switching to canoe so I can take the dog and paddle in my usual, accustomary places…Saltwater. I plan to paddle it with my Greenland Stick while sitting in the canoe. So, my question is, do any of you paddle in the sea with a canoe, and if so, do you use spraydeck or float bags?
Thanks

Falcon

Lots of times in salt water.
No I don’t use float bags or or a spray deck. I have splash rails that can be put on or taken off since they attach with velcro.

But-- I monitor the weather and just don’t paddle if it is rough

Pick your weather. The GL paddle will work but a double blade canoe paddle is longer than a kayak paddle. If you sit in “normal” canoe seats. Your GL is likely short.

Thanks guys! BTW what are “splash rails” ?

I have paddled in the sea with a canoe before but don’t do it on a regular basis. The Canoes can be more tippy so hopefully your dog has a calm demeanor and won’t get excited. Indeed canoes don’t do as well with rougher seas. It really depends on how often, and how long you go out. Maybe you leave early in the morning and more of the time at that moment the sea will be still and winds calm, but as the day wears on waves and wind and splash are liekly to arrive. I’ve heard of spray decks and float bags but never used them but again kayaking it more my thing given the fact that I tend to go in the sea with our kayaks and fresh/still water with our little, mini ultralight canoes.

What I am saying is we are on the water and the heavy kayaks live at the house and that’s it because we can literally paddle off the back yard. The ultralight canoes pack easily into the car/truck and those I can take around inland. You can take the little 24lb canoes in the sea/ocean but any wind or waves make your life miserable. Some of this is just the fact that they are so small, short and light so if you have a larger canoe your experience will likely be better than ours. But the lack of a deck is also an issue. So if you’re just going out on a short paddle in the morning when things are still canoes will be fine. I would have reservations to anything past that point; bring a bail.

Same rules apply in a canoe as in a kayak. Should you capsize, can you get you and the dog back into the boat? If so what equipment is needed to achieve that?

I suspect that if you try this, you will find at the least that float bags will be critical. Which you will find may limit the size of the dog that will fit.

A full spray deck is useful to keep water out, but frankly if it is rough enough that you need that level of protection rather than the splash rails that Jack mentions your larger problem is going to be on-water recovery for you and the dog.

@Celia said:
Same rules apply in a canoe as in a kayak. Should you capsize, can you get you and the dog back into the boat? If so what equipment is needed to achieve that?

I suspect that if you try this, you will find at the least that float bags will be critical. Which you will find may limit the size of the dog that will fit.

A full spray deck is useful to keep water out, but frankly if it is rough enough that you need that level of protection rather than the splash rails that Jack mentions your larger problem is going to be on-water recovery for you and the dog.

+1. Goes for both but maybe because I have less experience I find Canoes to be a lot more tippy. I have NEVER needed to rescue a kayak, not even once and I have kayaked way more than canoeing. Real canoes I only took a handful of time and I flipped twice, once was my son’s fault so that’s why I would be concerned about the dog. Like I said though I am a klutz in canoes. Maybe a skilled canoeist might not feel intimidated by taking a canoe on the ocean. But since I am used to the greater stability of “family wagon” type touring kayaks the canoe gives me pause on the ocean.

Actually the “canoe” I paddle is really a kayak (the Dragonfly) in that you sit low and use a 2 blade paddle, only that the open nature of it takes on more water in inclement weather.

I suspect we start out with a difference in perspective. I have only once capsized unintentionally on a regular outing in a kayak. I rolled up. (Other than whitewater) I have capsized plenty when I was pushing my skills in training.

I paddle solo when in Maine most of the time each summer for the last few years, with someone before that. I would not go out if I did not feel capable of doing at least two kinds of self-rescue. That takes practice each year.

In sum I don’t find it encouraging when someone has never capsized. It more often means that they have not pushed their limits, which you have admitted is how you feel about taking this open boat into the ocean.

If the Dragonfly is the pack boat by Stellar, it is only 12 ft. (Pack boats are a proper category of canoe, not kayaks.). I am skeptical it can handle the float bags that would make it rescuable on the water as well as you and a dog. Stellar also does not suggest it for open water on their site.

If it is the ressurected boat originally by Curtis, it is a canoe intended for more challenging water.

Celia I doubt the Dragon Fly is the Curtis ( now Colden boat), That boat is 14 foot 6 inches long and round and requires either substantial drop in the seat or kneeling… It is a deep river runner boat with symmetrical rocker designed for downriver racing but if you drop the seat down it is impossible to use a double blade as you have to hold it high up.

I would not take my DragonFly in the ocean but living near it in Maine I could… Would I take a canoe out in the ocean? Yes with the proper hull design and at least a partial hard deck… The Sea Winds or Mad RIver Monarchs etc were designed for the ocean and also for single stick. ( I am partial to single in it; double raps my knuckles on the kevlar woven cockpit coaming and that hurts!)… I also often take my RapidFire to Isle Au Haut with a fabric deck and a worn -on - me marine radio and a good jolt of conservatism.

Yes if you are in a canoe the most important part of gear is between your ears. If in doubt at all,don’t go out. There is a bit of fun in using at GP. I mastered the sliding stroke only after taking my 13 foot Nakoma ( its about 26 inches wide) canoe out on our home lake… Would I want to depend on it on the ocean? Hmm no… the blade just is not long enough and I am not wanting to slide it around that much all the time ( I would drop it).

So yes to both deck and float bags. These days not much sea canoeing is mentored. I learned it from AMC Whitewater in the Boston Chapter.back in the late 80’s as the Maine Island Trail was being developed ( and its early users were canoeists for the most part. There simply weren’t very many kayaks)

Yeah, one of the unanswered questions is the actual level of open water preps by the OPer. I don’t see anything talking about the larger picture of stuff for bigger water. Granted some bucks are involved, the last dsc equipped radio was not quite as low as l would have liked yet. But it was time to do it.

I do think it is a shame that sea kayaking has fallen off so many people’s radar. I wouldn’t have much of a clue about what to respect there were it not for a combination of various training and wonderful encounters like (darn, me and names, - Reinhardt?) on Thief when he was completing his last run of the trail in his Sea Wind. (I hope l got the name right) Happily l and Jim knew when we met him it was a moment to be valued. Even if my name recall is useless.

He did test a bit. He looked at our then fairly new sea kayaks and asked if we could roll. I said most days. Seemed to be the right answer.

I don’t see this changing. But there are some great experiences in that history, especially on the Trail.

@Celia said:
I suspect we start out with a difference in perspective. I have only once capsized unintentionally on a regular outing in a kayak. I rolled up. (Other than whitewater) I have capsized plenty when I was pushing my skills in training.

I paddle solo when in Maine most of the time each summer for the last few years, with someone before that. I would not go out if I did not feel capable of doing at least two kinds of self-rescue. That takes practice each year.

In sum I don’t find it encouraging when someone has never capsized. It more often means that they have not pushed their limits, which you have admitted is how you feel about taking this open boat into the ocean.

If the Dragonfly is the pack boat by Stellar, it is only 12 ft. (Pack boats are a proper category of canoe, not kayaks.). I am skeptical it can handle the float bags that would make it rescuable on the water as well as you and a dog. Stellar also does not suggest it for open water on their site.

If it is the ressurected boat originally by Curtis, it is a canoe intended for more challenging water.

No the Dragonfly is definitely not for anything save flatwater. You do paddle it with a 2 blade paddle like a Kayak and its twin, the Compass is a Kayak, same hull but the Dragonfly has no deck and looks like a canoe and is 10lbs lighter. The wind and waves will throw it around like nothing. Any more than 10mph winds and you have to paddle at 100% because otherwise it won’t go straight, you have to keep paddling and continue applying power just to keep it from changing direction. I only use it for inland paddles in places without rapids like chill rivers, ponds, lakes and reservoirs that are legal to paddle. You can use floatbags but I don’t as I don’t take it out on open water because it handles so terribly there and Stellar themselves, who are familiar with my area, warned me specifically to only take it out on the ocean on a very calm day and in case the wind or waves kick up stay very close to shore for a hasty exit as it’s not designed for big waters at all and I would be asking for trouble.

I am not the kind of guy that likes to push it. I am in my early 40’s, in very good shape and still fit in my high school pants but very tall and unsteady. This kind of extreme sport stuff scares the crap out of me. I make sure to never do anything that makes me feel the least bit unsteady and if that means not pushing it I feel that is the best course of action for me. Am I limiting my long term growth? Maybe, but consider we are on the Sakonnet River which is considered one of the roughest, most savage and downright dangerous bodies of water in the local area.

With a Northstar and Polaris plastic doubles they are so fast and stable and heavy it’s hard to upset them and with all our gear (including semi dry suit or the 2 piece modern super warm wetsuits) as well as good life jackets we’re fine. I’ve never had a problem. So I think the Sakonnet will push us more than I’d like to admit, but again, I will paddle in such a way that boat stability is not just the top priority, but the first 10. I always look for the most stable, least tippy way to move so I don’t push it. For us paddling is an excercise, relaxation and family activity

@falcon said:
Thanks guys! BTW what are “splash rails” ?
They are foam strips about 20" long and a few inches wide, (triangular shapped).
You attach them to the front top outsides of the canoe just under the gunnels starting at the bow point.
The way they are made is too deflect any waves or whitecaps that are coming at you off to the side rather coming over the top into the boat.
We’ll be using ours next week on Long Lake up in the Adirondacks.
They save a lot of bailing in rough water

thanks All

I have a friend who grew up in Canada and did Canoe camp every summer from being a wee boy well into his young adulthood as summer job. He got some kind of Canoe instructor certification that he hasn’t kept up but his skills are amazing. He makes these S and J shaped strokes explaining how he gets the water to be turbulent against the hull to help steer the Canoe because if you’re alone and paddling on just one side you have to do that. When he does this in a kayak double with me the boat gets a little tippy and that scares me so I asked him not to do it and paddle like the simpleton that I am.

The way he explained it is that Kayaking is very straightforward: you just paddle, you have two sides, and paddle more on the side away from which you want to turn. There’s a bit more to it but that’s 80% of the game. Kayaks tend to be more stable and he definitely confirms this as well.

I have gone canoeing with him and it’s a whole different ball of wax. Canoeing has many more sublteties. Consider Kayaking like checkers and Canoeing like Chess in terms of complexity. Maybe consider a few lessons before taking out your dog as the procedure is not as familiar as you’d think coming from the Kayak world. Not saying Canoeing is bad either, just been kayaking for ~15 years and Canoeing gives me some pause.

No they are both subject to the same physics… The difference is the learning curve… It is pretty steep for canoeists at first and much easier for kayakers… That said after 30 years I am STILL working on the forward kayak stroke

I just looked up the Stellar Dragonfly It is in line with all the latest pack canoes… It is a pack canoe… It has float tanks.
Its not going to be easy to reenter… No canoe is… It is quite deep for a pack canoe at over13 inches amidships.

Its weight is right in line with other pack canoes. It is kind of fat . Does it have any tuck below the rail? Flared boats are quite seaworthy. Tumblehomed boats can be or can be not.

Its kind of short for the sea… Every wave will affect it… and it will bob and weave… But heck I had a friend who had a Hornbeck Lost Pond and he paddled from Knubble Bay to Reid State Park and back… some is open water and never had an issue… However his boat was that length and he was 5’3" Your height no doubt will make a difference.

Here is the Stellar Dragonfly https://www.stellarkayaksusa.com/dragonfly

Here is my Placid Boat works Rapid Fire for comparison which does see salt water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9-V4Mhrp4

@kayamedic said:
No they are both subject to the same physics… The difference is the learning curve… It is pretty steep for canoeists at first and much easier for kayakers… That said after 30 years I am STILL working on the forward kayak stroke

I just looked up the Stellar Dragonfly It is in line with all the latest pack canoes… It is a pack canoe… It has float tanks.
Its not going to be easy to reenter… No canoe is… It is quite deep for a pack canoe at over13 inches amidships.

Its weight is right in line with other pack canoes. It is kind of fat . Does it have any tuck below the rail? Flared boats are quite seaworthy. Tumblehomed boats can be or can be not.

Its kind of short for the sea… Every wave will affect it… and it will bob and weave… But heck I had a friend who had a Hornbeck Lost Pond and he paddled from Knubble Bay to Reid State Park and back… some is open water and never had an issue… However his boat was that length and he was 5’3" Your height no doubt will make a difference.

Here is the Stellar Dragonfly https://www.stellarkayaksusa.com/dragonfly

Here is my Placid Boat works Rapid Fire for comparison which does see salt water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9-V4Mhrp4

Yup I am over a foot taller than your friend! Dragonfly doesn’t like any kind of “conditions” at all. It’s basically stillwater only. The learning curve for canoes is very steep but the Dragonfly is paddled with a 2 blade paddle so for all intents and purposes it looks and is called a Canoe but is handled like a Kayak so not really. It blurs the lines. I am happy to enjoy a true (one blade paddle) Canoe with my friend just a couple times a year in stillwater. Even then the equivalent “Family wagon” type canoe is more of a roller coaster ride than the comparable size/weight/length kayak, say Old Town 17 foot vs Wilderness tandem.

After 15 years of paddling I still don’t really know how to re-enter so I wear wet or semi dry suit depending on season and stay close enough to shore so I can swim back. Despite being in excellent shape I am too tall, too stiff, too inflexible and too much of a klutz and in my 40’s it just keeps getting worse. Tried Yoga for almost a year still couldn’t touch my toes with my fingers. I don’t feel limited by keeping my paddling to swim to shore distance only. It just takes longer to cross a channel or bay.

@CA139 A pack canoe, as a couple of us have said, is not a wanna-be kayak nor does it blur lines. It is a distinct and long-established category of canoes and they have been around a long time. Pack canoes are intended to be paddled with a double blade. If you were in an area like the Adirondacks this would not be new to you.

I had missed that it has float tanks, but that is not necessarily helpful. My ultralight solo canoe has float tanks. But the boat is so light that they do not hold enough air to keep the boat from turning into a submarine in an on-water re-entry.

I am not making sense of how you cross a channel or a bay without at some point being too far from shore to swim in, or at least swim you and the boat back. And a dog. Aside from the consideration of whether capsizing in a channel is safe to start with.

Sorry hon… Pack canoes do not have to be paddled with a double blade… Shouldered tumblehome allows single blading… But it is a poor idea in the ocean… You can get in with a paddle float reentry. SIngle blade paddle float reentries have been horrid for me as no matter how secure the paddle is to a thwart it pivots and fails to deliver support; it turns in to a fulcrum Because the boat is not usually full but full enough to be unstable.it is wise to paddle with another for assistance. Once in the boat of course your paddling pal has to be with you while you pump. Getting water out of the canoe prior to rentering is a noble undertaking but due to hull design or the process of reentry is usually futile.

Been there and done that ’ not just reading about it… But it requires practice. And once you do it you understand the limits of when and where to go out.

Archimedes principle of submarine avoidance is relevant… You have a very much better self rescue with a larger ( ie longer boat)

You may have an incorrect impression about whether I have spent time practicing rescues in canoes.

I fixed the above about the blade. Nonetheless pack canoes are great craft unto themselves and were not put out there to be wannabe kayaks. Kind of like Morgan horses when I was jumping. Wonderful animals and unique to themselves, just silly to think that because they are all horses a Morgan should be asked to jump 6 foot fences.

I agree that a paddle float re-entry will strictly speaking operate. I spent lots of time in a local pond trying to do the same kinds of things with my ultralight that I had achieved in other sessions using a wooden Mad River solo and some tripping canoes etc. Some with proper float bags which I found helped make pretty much everything work.

But even if I did successfully empty the thing, did that usually OK, getting back into the boat didn’t solve the larger issue. It sunk down as I got in and I found myself sitting in water up to my waist and a couple of inches lower than the gunnels every time. Since the point of an on water self-rescue is to get OUT of the water I had to call it a failure.

Were I to take the ultralight anywhere serious I would add full float bags. My experience with other boats told me that is a successful approach. But the built-in air chambers are not enough for safe solo paddling. I suspect the same is true of that Stellar boat.

So what was the volume of the boat you were reentering? That is key… I am not in this for computer arguing… I am hooray 2 weeks post hip replacement and ready to turn loose in the RF. I would be sure to lose the reentry in any boat now and when I had good hips would lose in a tumblehomed boat… Constant flare has some pluses. The RF has an abrupt tuck but flare otherwise all the way up the side which helps prevent water entry.