Last Time This Came Up…
I think I posted that I’m:
Distance: Advanced.
Conditions: Intermediate.
Rescues and such: Beginner.
Seems like String chimed in with a “me too!”
Ranking?
Why in the world would you want that.
Ranking
Virtual (on the Internet): Advanced
Real (on the water): Beginner
Someday (if I try hard): Intermediate
if we’re ranked do we get badges?
Badges we don’t need no stinking
badges! I am looking for the devil duck though.
To quote Dirty Harry
"A man’s gotta know his limitations" 
okole
These?
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Exp. Level…a different take…
Hello, Everyone…
I thought I would chime in.
As far as ranking oneself, seems to me we place ourselves on a continuum filled with people/tests we know and place ourselves according to where our current skills/knowledge base is in relation to them.
However, here’s the meat of it. For me, organizing & leading trips, it’s about as concisely as possible describing the environment and accompanying skill sets needed to navigate that environment. Then, the person can begin to assess and describe their ability level to me. Of course, I ask specific questions geared to uncover what they actually know and perhaps ask them to perform certain things to be relatively sure they can practice what they say they know.
As to my own ranking? I don’t rank myself unless I know the environment/equipment first, else how can I be sure I am conveying an good picture of my ability to the other person?
Of course, the more varied the actual paddling experience allows for better understanding of abilities and their levels - relating to distance, weather, chop, rapids, rescues, etc… It’s amazing how people think that because they ‘know’ something, they can actually do it with proficiency! Yikes! So, yes, I always check to see how much actual paddling they’ve done, where, and under what sort of conditions.
NOW I know gotta get on the water
When the discussion gets down to devil ducks it is really really really past time already to get out on the water.
Those devil ducks are really a riot! See ya out there!!!
caddy shack / zen
ahhhh, zen…
when judge smails asks tai what he shot for a score, tai said that “…i don’t keep score”…smails pushes and asks him how he compares himself to other golfers if he doesn’t keep score and tai asnwers simply “by height”
so regardless of ones “height”…there are always “tall tales” ?
yep but spa places sell the cheaper!
They have glow in the dark ones for novelty.
After reading all the posts
I’m thinking that there are just too many variables. Since I am mainly an inland paddler some of the second nature skills that have been discussed on big open water are probably weak. According to the post from Sea Kayaker Mag. I am as I state, intermediate. I can do the stuff described there. Were I in the sea I would be down below novice even given the same conditions as described. Yes, I can brace and roll and I have been in stuff up to 4’ and winds over 30 mph (don’t know knots). However, I have not had to roll in anything like that. I can only hope that the level of experience that I do have would be sufficient enough to tell me when I shouldn’t go.
On our Voyageurs trip last year we had trouble with chart reading a couple of times and we opted to sit out a day with 40+ mph head winds and rain on Rainey Lake. The other days with 30+ mph tail winds weren’t bad. I felt that discretion was the better part of valor in that case.
Joe
You’ll do fine!
Celia, gotta remember, it’s all about fun on the water! You’ll do fine. Hudson’s clear of ice, going out today, wanna go?
See you on the water,
Marshall
http://www.the-river-connection.com
A rating system is needed
…and needs to be applied. One persons intermediate is another persons beginner. This is much much more critical as more beginners come into the sport.
A rating or scale system will help determine the suitability of a trip, expedition, training course, etc. as to the suitability of the participants.
It will help guides provide a gauge as to how to provide the best experience for a group knowing they are equivalent to BCU 2 star paddlers looking for a bit of a challenge, for example.
As an individual, it doesn’t necessarily matter. You are at liberty to assess yourself any way you like. When others are involved, I certainly would like to know what others in my group are capable of - my life my depend on it, and likewise theirs. But I’m not particularly interested in a complete resume of every shore they’ve paddled.
It’s nice to see something like “this trip will take us through the triple hexx mega region where 3-stars may be challenged, and 4-stars will have some fun”. Kind of lets you know what you may be dealing with, no?
More on Skill & Experience…
Well, the easiest thing to do is have scheduled Training Days for all newbies, BEFORE they are allowed to go on trips. I do this every Spring, Summer and Fall. This way it’s a controlled/safe situation. People (newbies) love this. They remark that it takes the fear/anxiety out of the equation by showing them in practical terms what is required of them and then teaches them the things they need to know, plus practice time actually on the water.
People who say they have skills, but are unknown to me or other Leaders are strongly urged to come to Training Days to ‘brush-up’ and/or learn new skills. If they have more/different/better skills, then I ask them to teach me, other leaders and perhaps other interested people those skills. I haven’t been turned down yet. So, as a result, skills are learned and polished with practice. Ample opportunity to get better and have more fun on the water!
This way we either teach the skills needed or can see that the person does indeed have the skills needed for the trips in question. I keep track in a log/spreadsheet for my own benefit. It’s handy to refer to when assessing a group of people who have signed up for a Trip.
I’ve been using this philosophy for about 13 years now and it works real well.
Comprehensive ratings
>It’s nice to see something like “this trip will take us through the triple hexx mega region where 3-stars may be challenged, and 4-stars will have some fun”. Kind of lets you know what you may be dealing with, no?<
Yes, and no!
Coming from a recreational cycling background, it’s natural for me to see the parallel of the two sports. What I saw is kayaking is way behind the level of sophistication cycling community is in rating trips to maximize cohesion. It’s ironic that group cohession has much less implication to the group in cycling than in kayaking.
Let’s look at specific examples:
- Speed:
Just about every cycling trips indicate distance AND speed. More over, there’s usually some suggestion to how to measure oneself in the relavent terrain.
Most kayaking trips, on the other hand, simply ASSUME an average speed of 3-4 mph with moderate wind. Well, a huge gap quickly developes between paddler who does 3 mph and those who does 4 mph! Add 15 knot of front quarter wind, the faster group is out of sight in 10 min! More over, someone who can sprint at 5 knots may run out of steam after 10 miles with 10 more to go, while the slow-and-steady are just only warmed up… It’s hard to keep the “group” togather when you have such vastly differing abilities.
- Environment:
In hilly states like CA, most cycling clubs add to their trip rating the average rise per mile. Some big guy who could cruise 20 mph could as quickly fall apart when faced with 12% grade for 1/4 mile, while a skinny twig who dance his/her way up the mountain may have trouble hanging to the back of the paceline going 25 mph. They will enjoy the trip better if both knows how hilly a particular trip is and choose accordingly.
- Technical Challenge:
Any mountain biker in SF Bay area heard about ROMP. Their trips not only list a) distance, b) vertical feet gain/loss, their add: c) technical challenge. While it’s all in the legs and lungs for roadies, mountain bikers need specific skills to negociate certain terrain such as cliffside single track, steep downhill with lots of 3’ drops, or muddy and sandy surface etc. By listing all 3 elements, participants can get an idea whether they’ll be in a hike-a-bike death march or a spin in the park.
Same goes for kayaking. A whitewater cross-over may have tons of fun playing in the surf and rock garden, bu tmay not have the best forward stroke and got drop before even reaching the play area! On the other hand, a fast inland lake paddler might cruise ahead great but totally freak out when the swell came up, etc.
Rating can be valueable. But it would have to be more comprehensive to be useful at all. The overly simplistic “beginer vs. advance” failing to capture the specific may be great for the ego, but it isn’t much use for trip planning.
Amen Bro !
Cheers,
JackL
I don’t think I have ever paddled
with anyone who would not sit out a 40 mph headwind if they had a choice! Good move.
Rating systems
Seems more useful to rate/describe the likely conditions (+/- range to allow for WX variations)/distances/speeds/etc., with special note of any specific skills/equipment (even basic stuff on easy trips). Then paddlers can see what they’re getting into and what’s expected/required. I see a lot of trips simply listed as “easy”, “moderate”, etc.
Some may still over estimate their abilities and show for trips they should not - but at least the trip descriptions applies to all and offer fair warning.
Individual paddler ratings are suspect. Self rated for obvious reasons, but even the comprehensive systems like BCU must vary. They’re given by different people in different situations. Would a 4 star I earned in Peaks Island, ME or along the Oregon Coast really be the same one earned in Tampa, FL? I know the instructors are top notch and may all be on par with each other (and travel among many sites to train), and can account for variation in venue to some extent, but the conditions still make a big difference, no?
paradox
the more I paddle the less I seem to know.
this seems to be the case with many things. The more knowledge you have the more you realize what else is out there that you don’t know.
there are also different paddling enviroments as aflope mentioned. One can be an expert in one in enviroment which does not necesarily cary over to another. The flatwater racer who can’t roll or paddle a sea kayak vs the master sea kayaker who can’t stay upright in a sprint boat.
there is also the issue of being honest with oneself about abilitys without overrating or trying to be humble and underrating.
I think rank/ratting is only an issue when taking on responsibility of others on the water and wanting to now where they stand before paddling with them.