Thanks to you…
After reading this post I had to go and change my profile from intermediate to beginner. I doubt I will ever change it back either. I don’t like the whole rankings thing, I think it is just unreliable. Hey, I know people who have a high school diploma and can barely read, yet I dropped out in the 10th grade and when I was tested at a local college my reading and comprehension came in at 3rd year college level. Often I think certifications can cause people to be arrogant and think they are more capable than they really are. I don’t even want to discuss this any more, LOL. Heather
after reading this
I’m changing my profile from beginner to “doesn’t know which end is the pointy end.”
Biking Comparison
I bike too, and our club uses a similar system to above. Agreed it seems much more advanced for the need than most paddling criteria.
I am also considering changing my profile to unrated or beginner, at least until I get a BCU 3 star so that I can comfortably name a set of assessed skills.
What is it you’re getting
at do you want to say that some certifications mean more than others, or that, they are just not equal, or both, because of where the assessments took place?
I’d agree with all of that
I strongly advocate a rating system, and recommend every beginner get some kind of rated training. But as you indicated, it really isn’t much use alone. The rating system really replaces the beginner/intermediate/advanced ‘rating’. A trip should encompass both descriptive and rating.
It is, however, dangerous to rely totally on rating (e.g. differences between washington state and florida).
The fact that (as someone has indicated here) that there are so many ‘beginners’ here, indicates such a rating system is holistic, or philosophical, rather than practical.
The levels of rating (particularly the bottom rungs), cover very important specifics, such as the many, many hazards encountered (i.e. these things can kill you). The higher levels focus more on the skills.
Having said that, the rating system does not just encompass the practical elements. It also looks at the individual, and determines their comfort level, all round knowledge, leadership, etc. Things that are particularly hard to assess as pass/fail.
Indeed, the rating systems should always be completely optional. Such a dogmatic approach to (any) sport can be very offensive to people and drive them away. Likewise, others require such structure. Neither approach takes anything away from the sport.
Too much reading between the lines
"but for you to say that only experts don’t care about cert’s? could that come across as a little self aggrandizing to you? you know…since you don’t care?"
First off, I didn’t say thay ONLY experts don’t care about CERTS. I said that in my experience, “the best paddlers simply don’t care about ratings, even if they have certifications”. You’ve met a lot of very skilled paddlers and coaches. When was the last time you heard one boast about how good they are or what certifications they hold? I would guess that the answer is “never”. That’s what I meant.
Secondly, I was not talking about myself, you assumed that based on misreading what I wrote. I have never made any claims to be an “expert” paddler. I consider myself competent for the type of paddling I do, but that’s it.
Well, all of the above, but…
… just because it seems it must be so to some extent - not to trash certs/programs/etc. Training is always good - ratings always subjective. No reason not to asses, but then assessment on one day may not carry over (though I err on the positive side and assume most who take the time to do so actually posses skills beyond the requirements adn didn’t just squeak by).
I like Brian’s comment above: “I consider myself competent for the type of paddling I do, but that’s it.”
To that I’d add that my interested in developing more skills as a paddler is driven by a desire to have more options/safety/fun.
Someday I’ll likely train/assess - out of curiosity if nothing else. Learning has always been fun for me - and accelerated learning so much the better - but I also don’t want to pay to have some one rehash the obvious and tell me I can paddle. The lower levels seem pretty basic. In BCU, only the 4 star and up stuff looks interesting and worth paying for, taking time off, traveling, etc.
lololololol
I can just see it closing eyes…
All of us change our profiles to “Beginner”.
New people come and check the site and people profiles…
Their thought :“Gee, awful lota of newbies…hmmm…I guess this site is for beginners.”
Hmmm
Made for some interesting reading on a rainy day. I listed myself as an “Intermediate” because when I filled it out 4 years ago I had been paddling 20+ years, lots of different environments, a handfull of different states, lots of different boats, had rescued a few sorry a$$es, etc, etc. No certifications, seminars, or gold stars. If we’re talking about someone giving instruction or leading trips, I’d say classifications are important; here, I think it’s a bit anal to worry about it. WW
the message
in your post…the way i interperted it is one way and was not i thought unreasonable. if that was not your intention…okay…maybe i was reading between the lines and didn’t hear what you were saying. it’s one of the limitations i have with this format. if we were having a conversation rather than this typing back and forth thing, it is unlikely we’d have the same miscommunication.
i tend to agree with you there…the folks that i would say to myself…hmmn, pretty expert if you ask me, would simply say that they, and all of us, are still simply learning. that there is always a lesson.
you do understand
that the assessments for both 4 star and 5 star must be performed in conditions?
In other words if a beaufort scale 2-5 sea state doesn’t exist the assessment can’t be performed.
Yes, …
… I’m well aware, and the copy I have of the 4 star sea syllabus I have states force 2-4 - not 5.
Your question seems to tie into hdove7’s comment that “Often I think certifications can cause people to be arrogant and think they are more capable than they really are.” 
OK - cheap shot, but your post sounded a bit condescending/arrogant. I really don’t get where your going with this “conditions” thing.
The requirement is for “moderate” conditions. That means mild - not intermediate (between calm and hell). 2-4 is nothing special. Quite mild really. I would hardly call it “conditions” as if that means something. Our average sea breeze on very fair weather days matches the requirement.
I recently did an offshore race leg in Force 4-5 (after steady onshore for a couple days and hundreds of miles of fetch, along a shoal, 3-5’ swells and 2-3’ wind waves, some bigger - all sloppy). Nothing remarkable, but being the first time I’d raced in that stuff it had my attention. I never even had to throw a brace. Would have been a great training day (was actually, just not rated). Some Gulf side paddlers remarked that they just don’t get stuff like that, yet my closest BCU training option is on the Gulf (4 hours away). Sea Kayak Georgia is next closest (6-7 hours?) - and they have a bit better conditions for learning/playing.
Force 4-5 can be a very different proposition depending on wind direction/duration, topography, swells, tides/currents, etc. Place and time means a lot more than the Beaufort scale number. Still - 2-4 is usually rather tame and it’s easy to find such conditions most anywhere.
A diversion to something I found interesting in the 4 star sea syllabus:
"PRACTICAL ON FLAT WATER
- Rolling. Where the kayak is of appropriate design the candidate should be able to demonstrate a roll. It is permissible to allow the candidate to set him or herself up before capsizing. A roll on one side only is required. Provided the rest of the candidate’s performance is sound, an inability to roll is not a
fail factor in itself."
Hmm… This is the req for “sea” paddling right? Why wouldn’t the kayak be of appropriate design? Inability to roll is not a fail factor? Why not? Seems like this, and a few other things, creates a rather large gap between 4 star and 5 star.
3 star and below, while covering good basic info (a books cheaper) holds no intere$t. Maybe I should reconsider and go work on my reverse figure 8s that I’ll never use for anything else? Shows good boat control sure, and good way to practice, but there are more effective and practical ways to maneuver.
Anyway - I’m getting off topic and into silly details. I’d rather not get into BCU specific debates. It’s a good system overall, and I only look at this stuff out of interest. Forgive me if I have a tendency to question what I see.
from your earlier post
about conditions being different for each assessment based on location, and therefore each persons assessment is more or less valid, based on these factors, according to greyak. From the sound of this I just wasn’t sure if you understood they had to be performed in sea conditions, where there were 1-3 foot waves and 10-20 knot winds, for 4 star anyway. And no it isn’t all that serious of conditions anyway, but according to that logic then what does it matter if you’re in florida or oregon? You’re confusing me?
If you are reading condescension from me, then you’re confused, because all I am is confused about what your point is.
Just got back…
Just got back from three days on the river.
River was up & running good. Saw lots of wildlife, including eagles & a flock of 20 wild turkey. Didn’t see another canoer, or kayaker, except for the 2 canoers I was with during the 3 days. Nobody capsized, or even came close. We ate, drank, and slept good. Enjoyed the quiet; already looking forward to the next trip.
I don’t rate myself at any skill level on my Pnet profile. The people I paddle with can rate me if they choose too.
BOB
Lost me on your first sentence.
I don’t know what you mean by “valid” - and don’t want to go there. I’m not saying anything is or is not “valid”. Just different.
I guess what I’m really I’m saying is that for me the 4 star is an OK rating standard on paper, but maybe not so standard on the water because the assessments and subsequent rankings can vary quite a bit. 5 stars (and coach ratings) seem to be another matter entirely with both venue and award more restricted. 3 star - why bother (speaking only for my self, of course)? Not a put down - just asking as someone not very dependent on systematic learning or rank (but understands many others prefer such structure).
As usual I don’t think we have any disagreement in these posts - just different styles of saying things and naturally different ways of looking at these things since you have trained/assessed and hang with others who are and/or teach, and I haven’t and mostly paddle alone.
When I win Lotto I’ll hit the major paddling events around the country and be sure to head to GLakes. Then you can show me the error of my loner ways and watch me freeze and get trashed in your inland sea. I lived in the upper Midwest quite a while, so short of adopting a full time traveling paddler’s lifestyle I am in no hurry to get back there outside the quick visits to friends and family in South Bend and business trips to Chicago a couple times a year.
BCU “Appropriate Design"
I understand BCU added this clause so that SOT boaters can pursue BCU ratings without having to try and roll a 30” boat.
I thought about being a test case, but taking a SOT to a BCU event is sort of like taking a stripper to church…
well Bob…
In my new rating system, seeing “a flock of 20 wild Turkey” automatically bumps you from “beginner” to “level 2-c intermediate”… Congratulations!
Wild Turkey
Did you say you saw wild turkeys or drank Wild Turkey? That might account for the wild life you think you saw.
Wow! What’s next?
First the increased acceptance of Greenland paddles, and now allowances for SOTs?! Can it be! What’s next, a waiver of the hot beverage requirement for those of us in warm climes?
High tea with iced tea on an SOT? There goes the neighborhood!
Pretty soon instead of patches the BCU types will need Boy Scout style uniforms with troop ID and specific merit awards to sort out their particular allowances, subcategories, and locations they’re certified at.
Seriously, if they’re really open to SOTs I hope some start taking them up on it, though it may introduce more than a simple boat allowance into the scheme of things.
Wild Turkey
– Last Updated: Mar-23-05 10:58 PM EST –
Truthfully, I don't even know what Wild Turkey tastes like.
I have to admit I did refresh my memory regarding the taste of Tulamore Dew. I still like it.
Will that affect my rating?
I was wondering; does successfully negotiating a 100 foot waterfall in a kayak qualify you as an advanced paddler? Would attempting such a feat lower your rating from advanced paddler to an intemediate or beginner? Or would it have no bearing whatsoever on your rating?
BOB