Jedi Bob
Just to update your knowledge base.
Wild Turkey is a highly overated bourbon, I much prefer Makers Mark.
Only a real canoeist may drink Tulamore Dew on the river, but I will make special dispensations for selected yakers after they pay the required tribute of “one dollah.” However, on Saint Patrick’s day everyone should drink Tulamore Dew no matter where they are.
As for skill level. I wish we had the option of selecting just plain “canoeist.” I consider myself a canoeist in training, and will be till I die.
BCU Standards???
I would be curious to see the qualification standards set forth by the BCU for their various levels of certification.
Can anyone tell me where I could access them?
thanks
Matt
and real men
truly sink into their pockets for
single malt scotch and single malt irish whiskey.
I suggest the Glenrothes 18 year old scotch, from speyside.
Or the Bushmills 18 Year old single malt irish whiskey.
Plenty of whiskey’s to get you into trouble,
My rankings
A beginner–someone that knows just enough to get themselves in trouble
Intermediate–someone that knows they are going to get themselves in trouble
Expert–someone who looks to get themselves in trouble.
Now there’s the truth!
I’m so agreeing with your rating system, sloopsailor!
Our club has an ‘advanced beginner’ rating that defines me on many days and alot of paddlers on most days. There are so many variables that we use a rating system based on mastery of skills in certain conditions to decide if someone should go on a particular trip. Our beginner rating means anyone can go. The ‘advanced beginner’, ‘intermediate’, ‘expert’ ratings have a skill set that includes conditions. We have training days and trip leader evaluation that help sort things out and improve skills.
IMHO, experience in reading a situation and making good decisions is a critical part of a skill set. We include and evaluate that as much as possible.
Go to the BCUNA website
www.bcuna.com and that does not answer all of your quesitons, go the main site in the UK.
Wild Turkey is for cleaning tools,
not for drinking, a common mistake below the mason dixon line!
Now that makes a lot of sense
Good approach. Don’t tell me, prove it. And once you do prove it, teach it. And thanks either way.
You get the silver paddle award for the day.
- Big D
Shows An Open Attitude
I think the move to allow SOTs shows an open minded attitude.
We all know I am a die hard SOT guy, but there are conflicts mixing SOTs and SINKs in the same group. Sounds like they are keeping an open mind about it.
Wow!
Maybe I need to award a second silver paddle today.
I think it all comes down to who will you paddle with? It depends on conditions. If I’m going into a tough spot I’d consider beyond my solo skills, I want to paddle with someone I KNOW is skilled enough to lead the trip because I’ve seen them in action or they’ve been recommended to me by someone I trust. I don’t know that I’ve ever asked someone what they’re rating is or who has certified them (except for professionally guided trips). If I’m entering water I feel confident to lead or paddle solo, I’m going to try to bring some other folks along who might be a bit challanged and also some folks who are just going to have a good time.
I used to play tennis, and that was how the rating thing worked. It was a ‘gentleman’s agreement’ thing usually explained at the first intermediate level class. The best way to improve is to play with someone more skilled than yourself. So everyone was expected to play with someone more skilled than themselves for their own benefit, but also play with someone less skilled than themselves for the other guy’s benefit and for the good of the sport. I just transfer that concept to paddling.
At this point, to find someone less skilled than myself, I have to find newbies. And that’s just fine with me. I love sharing this wonderful sport with new people!
- Big D
Well, you all have it wrong
All bourbon is measured against the one standard. Tennessee sipping whiskey, Jack Daniels, Lynchburgs nectar of the Gods. For a break on some trips G’fiddich or G’livet will be allowed in moderation. NEver mix them on the same day though, it harms the palate. In any case all of the above will be served neat around my campsite.
Highpockets
You’ve framed the issue perfectly, Keith
Is there not a big difference between 1’ swell and 10 knot winds in 70 water and 80 degree air vs. 3’ wind chop and 20 knot winds in 40 degree water and air? Just the clothing requirements alone make the latter considerably more difficult to perform in. What does the BCU define as “waves”? Can it be swell, wind waves, surf, reflected/confused chop? Again, there’s a big disparity.
Here’s a personal example from another sport. I learned the basics of scuba diving in a warm pool. I did my certification dives in Florida. Does that make me qualified to dive in New England waters where I live? Yes, I have the basic knowledge, but the application is quite a bit different as I learned the first time I tried diving up here. I haven’t been diving in at least 10 years, but my certification is still good. Does that mean that I’m still as competent as I was ten years ago? No one would know from just looking at my certification card, but I can tell you that I’m certainly not!
The same is true of paddling certifications. If someone gets a cert under warm comfortable, conditions that just meet the minimum requirement, they haven’t demonstrated the same level of skill as someone who did the same certification on a cold, blustery, choppy spring day in Maine or Washington. Throw in the natural variations in the strictness and personal biases of assessors and the gap widens further. If one of these paddlers regularly paddles in difficult conditions and the other rarely ever gets his boat wet, the disparity continues to grow.
If neither of these people ever paddles anywhere else, perhaps it doesn’t matter, but the fact remains that saying “I have a BCU 4* certification” is not even a remotely standardized yardstick, beyond showing the ability to demonstrate basic paddling skills on something other than dead flat water at one point in time. That has some value, but it’s far from specific. Ironically, the 3* cert is actually more standardized, if you think about it, since at least the conditions are more consistent.
As was pointed out previously, some of the criteria are also questionable. Is it really more important for a paddler to be able to paddle a reverse figure eight on rough water or have a reliable roll on both sides? I can honestly say that I have never needed to paddle a reverse figure eight, but my “combat” roll has come in handy many times. Should someone who uses a Greenland paddle have to perform skills in the exact same manner as someone with a Euro paddle, even if there are more effective ways to use the GP which the paddler utilizes regularly?
I’m not trying to say that certifications are worthless, just not nearly as meaninful as some people - and organizations - would like to believe. Perhaps their biggest benefit is that they serve as goals for people who find them to be worth striving for and they therefore encourage some folks to improve their skills. Training is good, whatever the motivation. However, I tend to think the ACA has taken a better course by not offering paddler certifications, but rather certifying only coaches. Their coach certification system has it’s flaws too, but the concept is sound. It also requires coaches to practice their craft regularly and therefore maintain a certain level of skill and competence.
No, there isn’t and never will be a perfect certification system, nor can we reasonably expect one. Consequently, we shouldn’t place too much stock in them. If people choose the certification route for training or trip organizers use it for screening applicants, that’s fine, as long as they understand the limitations of the system and take them into account.
There are other ways to become a competent paddler. In my own case, I learned a lot more about practical boat handling skills from a few hours with Nigel Foster than I could have through either of the standard curriculums (ACA/BCU). I learned to roll through local club skills sessions and expanded my ability (somewhat) with the assistance of mentors. I learned most of what I know about group paddling skills and rescues through club sponsored events and courses, and through applying that knowledge on the water under real-life conditions. Although this process has lacked the consistency of a fixed curriculum, it provided me with a much broader understanding of these skills and much more individualized attention, where necessary. It has been tailored to my choice of paddling styles and equipment, rather than forcing me to adopt methods that I wouldn’t use normally just to pass a test. It has also provided me with the opportunity to learn by sharing what I know with others who are coming up through the same ranks. All of this has come at relatively little cost in monetary terms, compared to structured courses. I don’t have a patch or certificate indicating what I know (or don’t know), but I really don’t care.
Even if one chooses the structured course route, it’s valuable to take advantage of other resources if you have access to them. There’s no substitute for using skills on a regular basis and there are often methods and skills that aren’t taught in the standard courses that may be more suitable for you, the type of paddling you do and the environment you paddle in.
Bravo! Well said!
big fan of the scotch
like you mentioned, Glenlivet 12 year is probably my favorite sipping drink. Chivaz is pretty good as well. A small amount of this stuff in a platypus bag or something and you don’t need to lug all those cases of beer along on those camping trips!
Obi Wan Vic
Thanks
BOB
as with quite a few topics
– Last Updated: Mar-24-05 2:39 PM EST –
That we've discussed here before, the same result has occurred.
We agree on all these facts but we come to completely different conclusions from these facts. But that's ok, I don't think we'll ever agree on this!
The program dictates the sea conditions to try and level the playing field as much as possible so that someone in Washington would have roughly the same variables as someone in Florida. Do you really expect everyone to assess in the same place under the exact same conditions? I don't and I think the system works because if you do the majority of your paddling in once place, and you can assess in that place under the sea state conditions wouldn't you say that you are certified for the conditions on that day, in that area? Granted when that person travels to paddle somewhere, they will have to deal with a whole new set of variables, wind speed, water temp, and current. But they are at least a little better prepared than the person who hasn't had training at all, or worse yet, training from someone who doesn't know what they're doing?
But if this were really a problem, how would you deal with it?
I think the system of having folks certify separately as paddlers and as coach’s merits some consideration. Not all people want to instruct formally, but some do want to do the training, and the assessments, and these are different than the coach certifications, the syllabus and the focus are different. A good friend of mine did the 4 star assessments with me, but has no interest in doing any coaching certifications, but he felt the assessment was a good experience.
Re-assessment is not a bad idea. I had to do it for USSF soccer refereeing every year, and I had to pass a fitness test too, I'd be all for that, as long as it wasn't too expensive. But even if the BCU did this I doubt you would immediately sign up to be assessed.
I agree self-taught and informal mentoring is a great teacher, as is experience. I wouldn't know half the stuff I know about paddling if it hadn't been for the crashes and burns. I wouldn't know anything about half the traditional paddling maneuvers and rolls if it wasn't for Doug Van Doren in the pool. I wouldn't know anything about white water or surfing it wasn't for J Roon from lee's and none of this was from the BCU. But I still think the assessment was a positive experience, it forced me to study up on tides and currents, to try and remember a few knots, and also to want to do a coaching cert, but that's me. And yet again, why knock it if you haven't tried it.
"As was pointed out previously, some of the criteria are also questionable. Is it really more important for a paddler to be able to paddle a reverse figure eight on rough water or have a reliable roll on both sides? I can honestly say that I have never needed to paddle a reverse figure eight, but my "combat" roll has come in handy many times. Should someone who uses a Greenland paddle have to perform skills in the exact same manner as someone with a Euro paddle, even if there are more effective ways to use the GP which the paddler utilizes regularly?"
Ok as usual you've got multiple points here.
The Nigel Foster class you mentioned and spoke highly of speaks to the figure eight in my opinion. Nigel teaches some of the exact same strokes that one would use to demonstrate the figure eight. Being able to move in position and maintain balance while doing it in conditions should demonstrate your skills, but I don't think it's particularly offensive to be asked to demonstrate one?
What is your point about rolling because I'm not sure what you mean?
As for the Greenland paddle thing, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I was not asked to perform any modern or euro specific techniques when I assessed for my four stars. It seems that the bias here is completely yours.
I don't think we disagree on the fact that assessments are only as meaningful as you want/need them to be. Certainly mine was not as much of a pinnacle of achievement as finishing my trip on Lake Superior last summer, or the surfing I did this fall on Lake Michigan. And those are intangible rewards.
Got the potency right
but it’s cognac in an enamel flask for me! Even watered five to one it is tasty.
I became a fan of Cognac
due to some dirty dutchmen from Grand Rapids.
hear hear on the cognac.
KJW
I’m not sure you have any errors
that could be corrected by me?
A good woman might iron out a few!
If you are in chicago, you are less than two hours away from where I paddle, if you are in south bend your are about an hour and a half.
You should consider kayak training camp or the wmcka symposium.
As for a good thrashing, that depends on the weather.
I Am An Advanced Whiskey Drinker
I had my scotch years, but changed to Jack Daniels years ago and never looked back. Buy American!