I haven’t got a clue…
…what I do but whatever it is works just fine.
Now when I go out for a 25 miler tomorrow, I’ll probabaly get all screwed up trying to figure where I am bringing the paddle up.
Cheers,
JackL
GPS and Intuition
I WILL let a GPS tell the story of which stroke is faster. However… my thinking is that the longer a paddle is out of the water, the less efficient you are. If you lift the power blade at 90 degrees from the boat, then you have significant air time as you reach for your next plant. If you bring the power blade further behind, your next stroke (blade) is much closer to where you want to plant it… less air time. Anyone else use this logic?
Ski dumps don’t count?
Now they tell me…
It also yaws the boat
– Last Updated: Aug-31-05 4:02 AM EST –
Another bad effect of paddling past the hips is that it yaws the boat toward the paddle, since you are effectively exerting some extra drag on that side slightly astern. It's like a bit of stern rudder. So you end up putting energy into turning back and forth when you just want to go straight.
I've seen this pretty extreme, with very visible bow movement -- cured immediately by shortening the stroke at the hips. Usually it is more subtle, but I've gotta believe it is still there.
--David.
not only speed
I feel I loose stability when the hand has passed the hip. I can lean on the stroke as long as I have the paddle in front of the hips. It’s another reason to end the stroke before the hips.
taking out at the hips shouldn’t
Taking out at the hips shouldn’t create excessive air time. Nor will pulling back too far improve the set up for the next stroke. The top hand comes across and doesn’t start to punch out to reach for the next catch until one begins the exit so whether you exit back past the hips somewhere or at the hips you still have to reach for the catch. That is unless the top hand is punching out and dropping during the power phase (which puts it a bit closer to the catch) which is inefficient.
I noticed today…
that my paddle was coming out of the water just slightly behind my hip.
I was using a wing, and when I gave a second look, I damned near rolled myself.
I think it would be neat to have someone tape us paddling and then compare our form to one of the pros
cheers,
JackL
ok lemme
get this straight. yesterday I did shorten my paddling so that I was not exerting pressure after the hips and just getting the paddle out of the water so I could plant the other side. I was pressing my foot on the wet side, screwing up the torso and it really did make a difference in the amount of distance I could do quickly before any noticeable fatigue.
I am confused though as to what I may be doing wrong. As I paddle, twisting my torso, the boat does not yaw but it does lean from side to side. Is this normal or am I doing something either not enough or too extreme? I am going straight and don’t feel I am pushing the boat into the water…what gives?
Paul
Duck waddle
– Last Updated: Sep-01-05 11:33 AM EST –
Rocking (actually rolling) hull is less efficient (assuming relatively flat water/straight line travel). Lots possible of causes.
Paddle length - too short (over reaching) making you lean form side to side, or too long (burying too deep) levering you up each stroke, or inefficient application of power while accelerating, etc. All sort of interrelated stuff.
Whatever the details, some leaning/levering is going on. That robs efficiency two ways: It wastes paddler energy and alters the hull section in the water.
A little attention to staying smooth and level goes a long way. Sort of thing that will probably take care of itself as you add up some mileage.
I've been next to (and immediately behind!) behind Greg Barton and other top paddlers at the line up. Even under explosive take off power their boats stay pretty flat. Amazingly steady at speed.
I am guessing that …
…you are putting too much emphasis on twisting your hips.
Let it come naturally rather than forcing it.
Cheers,
JackL
will try that
so many things to think about at the same time that I probably am overcompensating and leaning way forward to plant the blade and twisting too much…I will settle it all back a bit. thanks.
Paul
Yes, bobbing forward may do that…
– Last Updated: Sep-01-05 1:18 PM EST –
... especially as you reach on one side for a far-forward catch. Make sure you are not going back and forth, but maintain a steady slight lean forward. If you do start to bob, you may be reaching ~too~ far forward.
In response to...
>..you are putting too much emphasis on twisting
> your hips. Let it come naturally rather than forcing it.
I respectfully disagree. Full hip windup and release is not a natural motion. It takes concentration and effort, a lot at first. It becomes natural only after considerable practice. That's why it's so hard to get people to actually do it, even when they know what to do.
Also, you really cannot wind up your hips too much, in theory anyway. They should be all but locked into maximum twist, so you can't turn them any farther. That said, you will probably choose not to paddle with that extreme twist/windup in many circumstances. But it's the ideal, and hi-performance racers do it. If you do it right, it should not lean the boat.
--David.
Thanks
Thnking about it I didn’t know just how I would be able to settle back on the rotation part. Bobbing is probably the perfect word…will be conscioulsy aware when I go out next time.
Paul
Hey
we were both in front of him on the third lap of the Bacall until he passed us (err, I mean lapped us!)
Cheers,
JackL
“Bobbing with one shoulder” instead…
… is how I put it to one paddler I saw bobbing, to suggest they rotate instead – they liked the image. I think full bobbing may be a natural consequence of trying for a good, far-forward catch but not rotating hips and torso enough to really get there.
I’m not entirely sure the proper way to characterize it, but I think the catch should be as far forward as you can comfortably reach without bobbing. Anybody know the correct criteria?
You should get more reach by (a) rotating more, especially at the hips (b) holding the wet side paddle shaft with only 2 or 2.5 fingers. That allows the shaft to extend a bit farther without stressing the wrist.
–David.
Doesnt the gp…
generate more of its kick farther back than a euro paddle. I’m relatively new to gp’s so forgive this rather basic question, but i could swear that Greg Stamer in one of Nigel Fosters videos discussed how the end of the stroke with the gp is where the power is and I thought that he was bringing his hand further back. He also implied i believe that lifting water at the back of the stroke is less of an issue with a gp (perhaps because of the narrower profile?) This seems counterintuitive to me but feels pretty natural when I’m using a gp.
Dan
GP tricks
You can use any stroke with GP.
There is a variation where you keep hands SLIGHTLY lower and add a bit more ab crunch and upper hand punch (maybe better thing to focus on? Quite a bit of GP power can come from push hand) where some extra kick can be had late in the stroke. GP blade angle (cant) can add a little push as the blade comes up. Minor thing really. Don’t make too much of it. These are subtle things a casual observer might not notice.
The real power is still earlier in the stroke and the paddle is acting as a lever you push the boat past - Not a shovel you dig water with.
Even with this little kick may HANDS are NOT going behind my hips. This is a key point for this whole thread - your HAND doesn’t go behind your hip. Blade might.
Greg can certainly explain the “kick” better than I can. I usually alternate between the little bit more crunch stroke and almost a wing stroke. They feel different, but I’ve never had anyone mention noticing it any difference (though a couple wing paddlers have noticed the near wing stroke).
My Obsrvations
To start with I don’t lift my paddle out of the water. I slide it out. When my hand has lined up with my hip my other hand is forward and ready to grab water. I don’t lift until the paddle clears the surface. I find that the more silent my paddling is the more efficient it is. When paddling into the wind it doesn’t hurt if your forward momentum is pushing the exposed blade forward. While the greastest power ends at the vertical line you still have to reach forward to grab water. By keeping the blade submerged until forward momentum slides it out you are wasting less energy picking up and out of the water. By taking a split-second rest between stokes your energy level can be maintained for a longer period of time.
When I read the different stroke desciptions I had to wonder whether the authors were talking about sprinting or long distances over periods of days.
Try this. Line your kayak’s bow with a distant object. Close your eyes and count slowly to 30. When you open your eyes see how far you’ve wandered off course. In calm conditions an experienced paddler should be able to maintain course and wander only very slightly at best.
Purpose of an early catch
Isn’t the whole purpose of an early catch to get get the blade fully buried before the paddle reaches its most effective position, which is centered around vertical? In that regard, I’m not sure it helps much to try to extend the catch further forward with a looser grip. I used to do it, but then wondered why it helped. There’s no power in that position because of the poor blade angle and the loose grip. I understand that moving your entire stroke forward always helps, but once you’ve done that, I don’t see how it helps to extend just the catch even further.
Probably there are cases where
paddling past the hips is efficient and effective. One must be careful not to generalize from racing, sprint or marathon, to cruising.
Examples from other areas… the walking style that works for a person doing serious hiking does not have to be based on heel & toe Olympic walking. A walking style which works for YOU and YOUR nervous system, bones, joints, and muscles may in fact be very efficient.
In competition rowing, a racing form now about 1.5 centuries old in its present form (60 foot eights, outriggers, sliding seats), coaches used to train fairly radical forward reach and backward lean. Later people learned that a shorter reach and shorter layback avoided “pinching” the boat and made use of a more efficient path of the blade through its arc. Generally, rowing experience has favored shorter strokes and higher rates.
In slalom C-1, which is sort of an extreme form of a high angle kayak style, Davey Hearn and Jon Lugbill learned to take out earlier, when entering their period of dominance in the 60s. As a wretchedly amateur slalom boat paddler, I have also learned to shorten my stroke and take the blade out earlier, and this works better in my kayaks. But I recall how I used to paddle, and I can still produce efficient cruising strokes in canoes or kayaks where I pull farther through. By this I mean efficient for a day of paddling, not for citizen racing.