Thank you angstrom…
I think few people understand the concept of finding the right boat for the motor, thus being as fast as that combo can be… They’ve been told long is fast, and that’s where the thinking ends. I see small women in huge long kayaks getting blown all over the place. They all tell me they are in the big long boat so they can keep up, which they don’t. I put one woman in an Impex Mystic 14, and guess what…she went faster and had more fun. If a person can’t load their boat solo on a car, they sure as heck don’t have the power to paddle a big boat.
I also know a 125 lb. Olympic woman paddler who can easily power anything 
Paddling with the spouse
Hubby bought me my first kayak 7 years ago. There have probably been times he wished he never had as I was out in it as much as possible during the week (we live by a river), and many weekends I ended going rustic camping and boating with friends.
He started to complain I was gone all the time, so I gave him a choice. (You can do that after 40+ years of marriage.) He could spend all his spare time watching the ‘idiot box’ (TV) or join me. He elected to start joining me. He’s not the fanatic I am, as he likes only faster water, but we do take opportunities to organize co-ed weekend camp/kayak trips.
He doesn’t join our group for winter kayaking as he says, “I work in the cold weather and I don’t feel like playing in it!”
For those who want their spouses to feel special when you paddle together, I have a suggestion for those this may apply to. DON’T HAVE YOUR SPOUSE DO ALL THE “HOME” THINGS WHILE YOU’RE ON AN OUTING. Treat her as if you’re courting her. Take responsibility for getting equipment ready, help prepare your food/drinks, etc. Spoil her. Compliment her. You may be surprised at the comments you overhear her tell family and friends. She may think she has a new man! Or she may think you’re up to something. Could be! Good times together don’t always start in the boudoir, sometimes it begins in the kitchen by being of help and making her feel like more than a wife/mother.
MI. NANA
A great idea. I usually do the opposite.
– Last Updated: Feb-17-06 8:18 PM EST –
On long days when I am off paddling, I leave my nonpaddling wife one of these:
http://loribradley.typepad.com/add/behemoth_to_do_list.jpg
I must take exception…
– Last Updated: Feb-17-06 9:04 PM EST –
to Salty's statement that Badjer is probably "four times stronger" than his wife. While it is true that on average, males are stronger than females, on a person-by-person comparison, the opposite could be true. A stong, fit female paddler will always out perform an out-of-shape male paddler. In our R.I. kayak club (R.I.C.K.A.), some of our most accomplished paddlers are female. Indeed, in my estimation, our most courageous (some may say foolhardy) paddler in R.I.C.K.A. is female.
Tony
Other advantages
When the military wanted to find out why women could handle g-forces better than men, they did a bunch of experiments, and got some very interesting data.
Basically, at the same level of conditioning, a man is twice as strong as a woman. The woman has better endurance, balance, and tolerance for pain. Individual differences will vary around those generalizations based on conditioning and genetic factors.
And what they found to be the female advantage flying jets also holds true for kayaks ---- women are shorter, and have a lower center of gravity. In kayaks, it makes them more stable in a wide range of conditions, and in fighter jets, they don’t pass out as quickly because their hearts are closer to their brains, and their blood cannot drain away from their brain as far as it can in a comparable male and cause a blackout. Which is why your top fighter jocks nowadays are short men. (And once all fighters are fly-by-wire and don’t require strength to steer in tight maneuvers, the ladies will move right into that club as well).
Anyway, my point here is that your exception proves the rule — at the same level of conditioning, women are not as strong as men, but with their physical advantage of lower center of gravity, they don’t need to be as strong, and can concentrate on other things than just staying upright.
It’s a series of tradeoffs, and the whole package makes the paddler. I also know the individuals X15 mentions, and they are impressive paddlers. But I doubt they’d match a comparable man in absolute physical strength — but that’s not really relevant to paddling all by itself.
Wayne
Good points, Wayne!
– Last Updated: Feb-18-06 10:30 AM EST –
Also, endurance, more than "iron pumping" strength, is very important on long trips, or when fighting a head wind. Mental toughness is right up there also.
As an example, years ago I wanted to go out to Block Island from Pt Judith (R.I.) with one or more of my kids. There were only 2 (out of my seven kids) I would even consider...one a son, the other a daughter. Only they out of the seven had the endurance and never-quit attitude required for such a crossing. Even so, I gave my son a test, an open ocean trip longer than the crossing to Block Island. He passed the test, and our trip later to Block Island was uneventful. My daughter didn't go because she was married, and lived out of state, but I'm sure she would have done fine. She's a real exercise nut, and is even "iron pumping" stronger than 2 of my sons!
Tony
Good points… I think we’re
in agreement really. I was making a point, and did so poorly with that example. What you are both saying aligns with my observations, and overrall point. Lower in the thread I mention a woman who is superbly strong and can paddle anything. I’m going to say, however, that “most” smaller women are not nearly as strong as a similarly fit man who weighs a lot more. I can sure lift 4 times what my wife can… However you break it down, the point remains. The endurance and mental tuffness you describe will be better served in an kayak that is matched to the paddler. I’m saying stuff here though that goes against what many believe. Couple of years ago witnessed a small woman in a Looksha III taking a class in Bowman Bay. Her instructor, in a Mariner, was trying to teach her to paddle without her rudder. Poor woman was all over the place in a 10 knot breeze. Terrible choice of boat for her. Way too long, too much windage, not enough mass for the hull to work as intended… Guess what, she was put in that boat by men so she could keep up…Guess what, that boat has more drag than a Looksha 4 at touring speeds, even though it’s capable of being pushed faster.
I’m a zealout on this subject because I’ve seen this over and over throughout the years. An excellent discussion about this can be found on George Gronseth’s Kayak Academ site. Mariner also did a great job of eductaing people. Long is ONLY faster if you can drive it…on another limb I’ll say many men can’t really drive the boats their in either. Now I’m in for it! Happy paddling…
Quite honestly
Most sea kayaks are way too big for most paddlers, IMO. Too beamy, too deep, too much of everything.
As an example, I’ll give myself. I’m 5’7" and a muscular 170 lbs (Ok, I can pinch an inch now, but only in the last couple of years). I have a CD Caribou, which I’ve had for 8 years, and a BBK Recluse. The Caribou, while a low-volume boat to most, is huge on me in comparison to the Recluse.
But, the recluse doesn’t weathercock. At all. It sits low in the water with me in it and my day gear. Sure, it isn’t as playful as the Caribou, but I’ll take the recluse on windy days anytime.
The Caribou handles best with a load of gear in it in the wind. She’s my rough water boat, but lately, I’ve been thinking about installing a skeg now that I’ve paddled a boat that needs no tracking aids. I just have a huge problem with cutting a hole in a pefectly good boat…
But my point is that most SK’s are too big for their actual use, which is day paddling. Put a smaller paddler in, and you compound the problem.
Wayne
comfortable strokes
I’ve seen too many small paddlers wrestling with boats that were too wide and too deep for them to paddle comfortably. They end up with both hands at face height, which stops being fun very quickly. Add a paddle that’s too big, and you’ve got someone who can’t help feeling clumsy and awkward on the water, and thinking it’s all their fault.
Maybe every partner(or parent) of a small padddler should borrow the biggest,heaviest boat and paddle they can find to remind themselves how clumsy it feels when you don’t fit.
Getting wife on the water
– Last Updated: Feb-19-06 2:38 PM EST –
(Warning - this got long.)
Jim and I are one of the extremely rare couples in any group we deal with - and it's usually the wives who are staying home. Some of the reasons that are things you can't do anything about. Like someone not wanting to be wet and arguing with the vagaries of water bodies for an extended time period.
But there are some things that can be worked on. A not uncommon diff is that guys will tend to measure their success on a paddle by how far they went how fast. That is competitive as heck - I see it all the time - and I am fairly typical for a woman in that it doesn't do a darned thing for me. If anything, it messes up what would otherwise be a really nice paddle. Fast enough and far enough to have gotten some nice moments and worked reasonably hard is all I need. If the guy can't ramp that down, more often than not they are going to lose their spouse.
I have been on many paddles where the wife has spent the entire time getting advice from her husband on how to paddle faster. Really bad idea! Even if she doesn't say anything to you on the paddle, odds are that she'll gradually come out less as soon as she finds a way to paddle in her preferred style.
There are definately some concern/anxiety type things that seem to be common diff's between the genders. Entrapment is a far more common issue for women than men, at least I hear it a whole lot more from women in group paddles. Perhaps they admit to it more easily. And I find, in a totally non-scientific sampling, that women will more often think of potential problems ahead of time. I have often had the experience of talking about something that seemed like it may be an issue ahead of time. But time and time again I find the the male species will encounter exactly that situation on a trip, and despite having been in a conversation about that scenario before will be utterly shocked that it really was a problem.
You can't do anything about that except maybe listen better. In general, if the spouse thinks that her partner is fundamentally unwilling to follow practices that she regards as safe, odds are that over time she won't go. I have heard a few stories from guys who admitted that their wives would no longer go paddling with them on major trips after the guy got them into a situation that the wife felt wasn't safe. One of the most successful paddling couples I know has worked out a system where she has final say on the decisions on how they handle route changes, degrading weather etc. That's a lot more successful solution than the whitewater guy who managed to get his wife into a situation where she nearly drowned. (He admits it.) She hasn't been in a kayak since.
As to the solution for things like entrapment concerns, overall safety and competency issues that really inhibit couples paddling together on bigger water - if it is truly fear only the person themselves can change that. They have to decide to face it down. My entrapment issue with staying in the boat to set up for a roll was giant - I really do have some claustrophobia - but I chose to work on it. And I have to stay in the boat thru pool sessions etc in order to maintain my progress. But that is a huge point - it was my choice. It's a non-starter to try and rationally argue someone out of what is an irrational response, and I often see guys trying to do that with their wives.
I do think there are things that could be done in training that would help a lot. More patience with a really incremental approach to learning a new skill and less emphasis on getting it fast than I often see (that competition thing again) - and frankly it would help to find training that had more women in the group. Right now, once you hit even intermediate level training there often will be no women instructors, and maybe two women in the student group out of six. I know that's not true everywhere, but it's pretty common in a lot of places. So whatever diff's in learning process that may work out better for women are not likely to happen - there is just too much of the other hormone in that group even when the instructors are terribly well-intentioned. Also, the women don't get to see any real evidence that a smaller person, in what is often too darned big a boat for them, can do things as easily as the guys with more upper body strength.
I really didn't mean for this to get so long - but as I typed I started remembering various conversations. I've heard complaints about pretty much all of this from one or another woman.
Wow, very informative post
I think you are right on.
thoughts
Alot of thoughts come to mind. My first canoe exp was the typical worst case scenario. Me in the front ex in the back yelling instructions. Then there have been several trips where I was the only woman trying to keep up with the guys even tho we had extra days set aside (wind days) if needed. The trophy hunting lunch sites, um yeah sometimes it is just better to paddle alone.lol…I am a fairly strong paddler and usually willing to make a trip within my skill level. In my family, Randy listens to me regarding safety distance etc… He has learned that I will keep us safe and the extra exp does come into play. When it comes to who has the fast boat we each search for what works for us. I have just falen in love with the Scupper pro, it keep up nicely with my old looky sport which he paddles. Chores: this one is important, I have gotten flat out cranky with my family for assuming I am happy to pack all the gear, make sure everyone has what they need and then carry most of it in my boat( It is not the mother ship)…lol…They are learning g… There are trips I have done that left me spooked yes I did let a dominant paddle partner talk me into them (not anymore)… and ended up regretting it for a long time. Lady’s say no when you don’t feel right about it…Guys don’t push us beyond our comfort levels…Due to past incidences I am not as open to ideas about trips as used to be. I have learned some of my limits the hard way…(some of the lessons rest entirely on my shoulders).I did’nt mean to rattle on as you can tell this subject hit close to home…kim
Celia: very insightful. Thank you. yes.
Pushing
In my experience, there’s a lot of truth to the sterotype that guys typically have more confidence than skill, and women have more skill tahn confidence. I understand that it’s no fun being dragged into a situation you feel is unsafe, or getting pushed past your comfort level. At the same time, it’s really frustrating when you know your partner has good skills, but never seems to want to try anything new. We really do want our partners to have a good time paddling with us – we’re just not always very smart about it.
No magic bullet here – just takes honesty and talk. Am I really as good as I think I am? What am I/are you really afraid of? And how can we work together to both get what we want?
Sometimes the solution is to spend some time apart – the more agressive partner can go hammer out a hard lap of the lake, then join his partner for a relaxed paddle. Sometimes a temporary ban on “helpful advice” can minimize stress, or a rule requiring that every bit of criticism be accompanied by a compliment. And don’t brush off your partner’s concerns, no matter how silly they seem. Take them seriously and address them thoughtfully. It’s worth it.
Great Advice
– Last Updated: Feb-20-06 10:18 AM EST –
I remembered something from the Explorer/Tempest/Legend thread, which is vaguely relevant to this one. Someone (I think it was salty) had mentioned that they had found the women in a group of paddlers were having touble keeping their Tempests on track.
Obviously I wasn't there, but this may have been physics as much as anything else. Boats for "smaller paddlers" are still usually boats for smaller guys. A 5'2" woman weighing 135 pounds will be (well) under that weight, so the boat will be sitting above the waterline more than for a guy - the woman automatically ends up paddling a boat with less waterline and maybe more rocker than the guy in the same boat. This is another minor detail thay often gets overlooked.
I completely agree that women often need to be pushed a bit, certainly that's been true for me. But as said above that is a very, very delicate balance. Even with being much more aggressive than some, I've found out after an unexpectedly "thrilling" paddle that my concerns had not been taken seriously. It unnerved me enough at the time that, had I not already decided that my goal was to be able to comfortably do real big water kayaking, I may have completely altered my point of view about with who and when I kayaked.
My advice is poor…
Get a new spouse! Make “likes outdoors” “not scared of mosquitoes” “Ok with mud and sleeping in tents” a priority.
If you can wait about 15 years, I have a lovely green-eyed girl I’m raising.
But I’ll warn you she’s gonna be even more opinionated than her mom. But she does already own 2 kayaks and has been on canoe camping trips.
Val, in CT.
paddler weight
I am definitely happiest in boats where I am at the top end of the weight curve…At about 155, I paddle a WS Piccolo and a Dagger Dynamo. Both handle well, feel good. I stopped paddling the Perception Method Air which just felt too big I could not manouever it!
Val
Not me…
I responded wondering “why” she was in a T170? 165 would have been better I bet. Perfect example of too much boat for a small paddler…
I spent many years as an alpine guide, including taking people up Denali (McKinley), as well as kayak instructor / guide. I need no sales job on how tough women are…But, they need the right equipment!!!
VERY few sea kayakers know anything about hydrodynamics, and most buy into faulty industry dogma. It’s not so much hull drag, as it is windage and reaction in big seas.
Bout four years ago did a trip on West Coast BC with two macho guys in Current Designs Extreme’s. On drive up all they did was talk about how fast the boats were, and how I’d have trouble in my Romany keeping up. I waited on them constantly…and when rough they stayed on the beach and criticized me for being careless alone out there…Intermediate paddlers in boats that they could not drive to potential speed…When the wind picked up in the afternoons they were getting blown all over. Good boat…sure. Just poorly matched. Try tellin those guys that!
Thanks
Well, it was someone and I was too lazy to go back and check. Good point about the windage - in that case it was likely the surface above the water that was causing the problem for those women in the Tempests. And then maybe they had less to work with below that.
thistleback and slidesgal
You both sound like super “catches”, and the type of woman that every paddler would adore. Man, that is funny – yes, I should have made the mosquitoes thing a priority before tying the knot… once a housecat, always a housecat. Too bad we can’t let the housecats spend some time together, thistleback, and paddle with slidesgal. The “let the mosquitoes be damned” club.