Picking the correct performance speed kayak

Advice
#21

The Chatham 18 is fast, I can’t say whether it would fit this paddler unless they got a first year one. Which had a cockpit probably able to fit Wilt Chamberlain. The marketing team got at that one.

It is however an entirely different boat in many ways than the 17 and wants a more skilled paddler. It isn’t just a bigger 17.

Each of the Chathams in that series were designed to be different creatures in terms of their niche. The 17 was the all arounder that should meet most peoples’ needs and represented the easiest of the three to handle. The 16 was highly maneuverable, great for bouncing around in slop and fit a smaller paddler. Though not small. The 18 was designed by someone with production racing characteristics in mind.

In fact for this OPer, the 18 is probably closest in a production kayak to what he is asking for, more so than any Tempest. But it can be a whale of a boat to jump to from a rec boat, lot of learning curve. He is better of going to a better mannered citizen like a Tempest until he - literally - gets his sea legs under him.

Plus as far as a I know the 18 sits at a higher price point due to being composite.

#22

Thank you so much for the info! Hooefully i can nail down one that fits correctly and have it befire to terribly long.

#23

If you want to be competitive, then look at what the people your size are using who win the boat class that you want to compete in. I really depends on how “serious” you wish to be and how much time and effort you are willing to devote to instruction, developing balance, nutrition, technique and training.

While a 17’ touring kayak would be fast compared to your Loon, it would be relatively slow compared to an intermediate surf ski (like a V10) with a wing and a strong paddler. It all just depends on your goals and what crowd you want to compete with.

Greg Stamer

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#24

Epic V-10 would be in the same class as a FSK?

#25

The V-10 is an awesome boat, but it a dog in flatwater.

It has too much rocker and too much volume in the bow to be fast without tidal energy.

It is also too long to fit in FSK class. It would be classed in unlimited and make you try to run with the big dogs.

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#26

There is a carbon/kevlar QCC 700 in the classifieds in the TN area. No details or pics, priced at $1K. https://paddling.com/classifieds/qcc-700-2174663

#27

NHTrucker, I noticed a change in the Tsunami line. Not sure when it started, but my 2010 catalogue listed the 140 as 24" wide w/15.25" deck; the 145 as 24.5" wide w/ 16 inch deck, and the 175 as 24" wide with 15.75" deck.

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My sister was very uncomfortable with the size of my 145. She tested the 140 and fell in love with it. The current 140 and 145 models available after around 2015, list the 145 as 25.5" wide w/ 15" deck. The 140 is 25.5, w/ 14 inch deck. The 175 is still 24" wide, with a 15.8" deck (virtually unchanged and still a very good boat).

I mention this because anyone who used the ealier models may not be aware of the changes. I appreciate the stability of a wide hull, but I can’t imagine what’s to gain by making them wider. The increased width would only cause problems as the waves get taller and begin to curl, and the increased width would also slow the speed. The boats dont need additional volume for carrying.

On the topic of Tsunamis, last year I bought a Tsunami SP for my grandaughters. The consensus is that it feels a little tippy at 12’ by 21" wide. The 13 yr old out grew it, so I bought her a used 140 Tsunami that’s 24" wide. She loves it and should grow into it as she debelops skills over many years of use. The 10 yr old grew the Prodigy and inherited the SP.

Like the Pungo 125 (the 120 and 140 wete great boats, now discontinued), the short Tsunami is only available in 125 by 26" wide. I wish they still offered the 120 at 25.5" wide and the 135T at 23" wide for small adults. One option is to buy used.models.

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#28

High decks should be roomy.

#29

The Tempest 180 listed above looks like a good deal. It will definitely have a bigger cockpit.
A 170 was very tight for me and I felt loose in the 180.
Loose or not, a great boat that can be padded to fit.

#30

That’s the main advantage of The Tsunami line. There’s a lot of storage and foot room, the cockpit is great for large paddlers, and the high deck helps keep it dry. If I could make a change, Id like to see the width drop from 24.5 inches to 24 inches, which is the same as the 175 Tsunami. Going to 25.5 inches wide, for both the 140 and 145, is the wrong direction. The 175 would be my favorite boat, but the length and weight is a disadvantage when loading, unloading and transporting. I tried the Tempest and the Zephir before it was discontinued. No way I could feel comfortable.

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#31

Sorry, I didn’t see that FSK was a requirement of the OP.

It depends on the event. For example for Chattajack they use a length and beam measurement, so a V8 Pro surf-ski IS in the “kayak class”.

See what the winners in your event, for the same class are using, and use that as food for thought.

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#32

It was just an example and it’s all relative. An Olympic K1 or a V14 surfski would be slower than a V10 if you keep falling out of it.

Coming from a recreational kayak, the OP would probably need something with stability; As Oscar C is fond of saying “no one is very fast upside down”. That said, I have known people who jumped right into elite surfskis or K1s but it takes a lot of dedication.

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#33

Hi John, haven’t talked in a while. Hope all is well with you.
I was interested in the comment you made about wishing WS would have kept the old style:

Tsunami is only available in 125 by 26" wide. I wish they still offered the 120 at 25.5" wide

Because I am only gaining experience with used kayaks and many of them are VERY different one from another (both models and manufacturers) I can’t give valid opinions on the matter.
Is a 6" reduction in length and a 1/2" reduction in beam width actually that noticeable? If so, how much -----and in what ways?

My comparisons are not all that varied. So it’s best for me to simply ask.

So far Anna and I have bought, paddled and kept or re-sold 23 kayaks, ranging from 6 foot kiddy SOT kayaks to an 18 foot P&H glass kayak. The P&H was wonderful to paddle and very fast but it was too long for us to store, so I sold it in about 2 weeks after I got it. I was warned it would tip over very easily because it was only 20" at the beam, but I didn’t have any problems at all. Anna did however. She got to look at the sky through a couple feet of water several times trying it out.

Other then that P&H kayak my Chatham17 seems to be the fastest one so far for me, but my Wife is using a 16.5 foot Perceptions and she can paddle that 16.5 foot kayak faster then she can paddle my 17’ 2" Chatham. It’s 22 across the beam and my Chatham is only 21" and it’s 8" shorter. But Anna sinks the hulls less because of her weighting 47 pounds less then me, and having longer arms she gets a full arc with her paddle which is a full 8 feet in length. The Perceptions kayak is also a 54 pound boat and the Chatham is a 63 pound boat, and when Anna and I were out with those 2 kayaks and swapping them back and forth, my Chatham had about 7 pounds of gear and drinking water in it and the Perceptions was empty. So there may be invalid comparisons from what we actually did.

But in a race across the lake where we went from one place to the next timed by a watch (1.25 mile stretch) Anna’s time with the shorter but lighter kayak was 11 seconds faster, but my times were faster with the Chatham by about 16 seconds.
In a side by side race Anna in the Perceptions and me in the Chatham17, she can beat me in 1 to1.5 mile stretches, but I can walk away from her in 3 to 5 mile stretches.
The problem with out “tests” is that (I believe) we’d need to have averages over a few days and several test with different paddlers in identical conditions (not likely on high altitude lakes because the wind changes constantly)
But my point is that the Chatham is slimmer by 1 inch (actually 1-1/4 when I measure with my machinists calipers) and 8" longer---------- yet for short runs Anna is still faster in the other kayak than she is in the Chatham.

So I am of the opinion it’s probably more about the paddler then the boat when things get close to the same size in dimensions. All I read says I should always be faster and she should beat her own times with the Chatham over the Perceptions, but in reality it doesn’t actually work that way.

I am still learning, so I try to pick the brains of other paddlers who have far more time and experience then I do.

Am I missing something here that I should be aware of?

Others are welcome to chime in here too.

#34

I want to thank everyone for their input! Theres so much to learn on these kinds of kayaks. The wife and i live kayaking and i sont mind having different yaks fir different kinds of events.

I did uograde her to an tempest 120. This is leaos and bounds ahaead if what she was in. She started iff in a pelican mustang, and that was a great luttle starter kayak. Didnt cost much new and we both learned a giod deal in that boat.

The Tempest i will say is a great deal nicer then my Loon. Shes definatly faster and tracks better.

I’ve found a dealer in Des Moines that has a couole if options that i can demo and they are goung to helo set me up correctly.

Right now, i do fit pretty well in the tempest, and i do like the boat i do however feel like i run out of leg room even with the poot pedals fully extended.

The place in Des Moines, i wull be demoing a Sitka XT 14’ and a couoke other’s. I really hoping they have a Fathom there.

As always, thought and opinions are greatly appreciated!

#35

There is so many factors and variables in your comparisons to even start break them all down. This topic might get entertaining. Thanks!

#36

Steve, your post showed up in my email box through the paddling forum. Unfortunately, i didn’t notice until it came back undelivered. Sincr that response is based on info that we previously shared, it could be confusing to other readers. I re-directed the reply to your personal email account.

The short answer is, I believe small dimensional differences between various Widerness Systems kayaks is noticeable, if you’ve spent time in the various models they make.

My first WS boat was the 140 Pungo Duralite (12 ft x 28 in). I loved and still love the boat, but the Pungo, while fast, didn’t have a sealed forward bulkhead (I added one) and didnt have the thigh pads for more control. The 125 Tsunami (12 ft 9 in x 26 wide) was a safe choice, because it was only 2 inches narrower than the Pungo. The 125 was just as stable as the Pungo, so I tested a 145 Tsunami (12 ft 6 in x 24.5 in wide), for more speed and better handling in the open water. It was as stable as the 26 in wide Tsunami. I felt the need for speed. So I tested a 175 Tsunami ( 17 ft 6 in x 24 in wide). In my mind, the 24 inch wide 175 Tsunami was the most seaworth and just as stable as the 28 inch Pungo, the 26 inch Tsunami, and the 24.5 Tsunami. So in my mind, increasing the 140 and 145 Tsunami to 25.5 inches was a boneheaded idea.

To make the story longer, my sister liked the Pungo, so I bought an end of the year rental for her to accompany me. As I progressed into the Tsunamis, she tried the 125. 145 and the 175. She felt they were too cavernous and hard to paddle. She prefered the 140 Pungo (her low angle paddle style using a 240 cm Camano, then 240 Kalliste, easily cleared the wide, but low cockpit of the 28 inch Pungo. I talked her into test paddling the 140 Tsunami (24 inches wide). She loves the boat and feels its as stable as the wider boats. She’s 76 yrs old and still goes anywhere that I go.

I also bought a used 12 ft x 21 SP Tsunami that passed from a 13 yr old to her 10 yr old sister. It feels a bit tippy for the 13 yr old who used the 125 Tsunami until I found a used 140 Tsunami (24 inches wide). She loves the 140 and will grow into it as she gains exlerience. However, I think the discontinued 135T Tsunsmi (23 inches wide) would be a better fit for the 13 yr old.

My nephew is using my 2nd 145 Tsunami (24.5 inch). He bought the new 125 Pungo (29.5 in wide) for his wife. My neice owns a 120 Pungo (29 in wide) and a 140 Pungo (28 in wide), both discontinued. Tried the Tempest line, I think from 21 to 23 inches wide with decks between 12.5 and 14 inches?, and the discontinues Zephyr models (22 &23 inches wide? With decks 16 and 17 high?). Sliding into them reminded me of driving my friend’s 2 seat Miata. Happened only once and never again.

What I’d like to see is a 155 x 23.5 Tsunami and a 145 x 23.5

#37

Steve, I finished reading the rest of your post. Even though I log all of my trips and always use a GPS, I haven’t really studied how each boat performs against the others. I have compared log entries for the 125, 145 and 175 Tsunamis. My WAG is about .3 mph advantage with each step to a longer model. It doesn’t factor width and length. Just a careful comparison using similar conditions and trips. My comments above only relate to stability between the 30 inch wide and 24 inch boats. My reasoning about WS going wider, right or wrong, is that narrower would “possibly” have a speed advantage, and it might be easier to edge.

#38

Regarding your and Anna’s differing performance in the same pair of boats: Resistance to forward motion is the sum of drag from the viscosity of water against the wetted surface area and energy used in displacing the water in front of the boat. The relative importance of these factors depends on speed, boat shape, boat+ paddler weight, paddler power, paddler efficiency,. For Anna, a lighter, and by your account more efficient paddler, the longer boat adds more wetted surface which probably outweighs the slight advantage in shape and frontal area. For you, as a heavier paddler, the larger boat is floating closer to its optimal waterline, so the advantage in boat shape and relative reduction in frontal area outweighs the increased surface area.

#39

By all means, move your Tempest seat back a “bolt hole”. You might have to saw off some of the seat base but it does no harm. I’ve done this several times. It makes getting in and out much easier.

#40

John, as usual I read and re-read your letter a few times and it’s helpful to me. I have no Tsunamis and have not been offered one yet, but I am sure the math and the aquadynamic hold with other kayaks and makers too. Just more info to help me get my “knowledge bucket” a bit more full.
pbailey, your explanation is sensible to me. In one way or another, kayak speed is always going to come down to power Vs resistance There are SO MANY factors that can effect each of those 2 foundational pillars, but it all boiled down to power Vs. resistance. A skilled paddler can have more efficiently to move the power to the water and not waist any, but it still comes down to power. A more hydrodynamic hull will slip through the water better then one that’s not as “slick” if both are displacing the same depth of water, but sink the “better” hull 1 inch deeper and it’s not just 1" of water. It’s 1 inch of drag for the full circumference of the hull at the water line.
In the several kayaks I have now paddled I can see a trend, but the idea that some things are hard and fast rules about Kayak A being faster then Kayak B still comes down to the person in the cockpit to some extent. Maybe to a very large extent. John tells me of someone he met paddling and Old Town Loon 120 and getting very impressive speed from it, despite the fact it’s a kayak with no thigh braces and wide at the beam. But the man in it was obviously an expert.
Given paddlers of the same weight and the same skill levels I expect the “rules” of hull design would be hard and fast rules. But paddlers are NOT the same size and they are NOT all of the same skill level, power levels or endurance levels. The issue becomes quite complex. Even the “answer” is not within full reach of most paddles : that answer being to go paddle different kayaks and see what works best for you. But it would be a very rare person who can paddle every kayak from every maker.
So the truth is that we learn as much as we can from our limited access to different boats and but even more from talking to others who also have tried different kayaks. We can’t actually test them all---------- or even a notable majority of them. We have to help others by what we have learned and learn from what others have to teach us.