Discussing kayaks speeds then throwing in a weaker or less efficient paddler vs stronger or more efficient paddler is totally apples vs. bananas not even oranges.
Steve, I was mostly expressing my opinion based on experience with the various models. Thsts why I initially posted the reply to your private email. Just wishing they experimented in the opposite direction.
Went out today. You’re famiar with my test course; on the first quarter I paddled with the wind and current, maintaining an aerobic pace. I turned the corner into the wind and tide, which cut my speed by one mph. I began to do long cleaning breaths, beathing in throughy nose for 8 stokes and out through my mouth for 8 stokes. Not only did I return to aerobic breathing, but I was able to match my speed on the way out and added .3 mph to the cruising speed.
I’ll send the graphs with explaination.
How much money are you willing to spend? The boat I would be looking at if I were you, would be the Novus Composite Expedition (NC 19’-2"). That is exactly what I got for long distance, speed and comfort. Another boat worth looking at is the 18’ Stellar Intrepid. Too bad you aren’t out here in the PNW; the other day I was at an REI store in Portland and they had a brand new 17’-7" Boreal Design Baffin Bay for $1188. Yeah it is polyethylene, but it sure looked like it could move and for that price?
Anyway, if you by chance you go for the whole tamale $$$$–(NC) ,have them set the seat back as far as they can. Oh–and practice up on your bow ruddering. These boats are made to go where you point them.
Magooch, I always loved the water, and explored lakes and rivers in canoes when I was young; those early canoes were wrecked, and I couldn’t afford to invest in new boats while raising a family. After my kids left and started families, I bought several canoes and a small rec kayak to do family outings. Unfortunately, they didn’t share my enthusiasm, until my daughter bought waterfront property. Now we kayak with her two daughters. My son’s daughter also has an interest, so all my attention has been in setting them up in used kayaks, which they’re outgrowing.
Over the years, I settled into the 145 Tsunami and the 175 Tsunami for the comfortable fit, the stablity and the suitability for my paddling area. The WS Tempests and Zephyrs were on my list, but those models were too tight for me.
Kayaking had to be benched while I focused on building an addition to my house. Then my rotator cuff was torn in May 2019, as I re-landscaping the property. While upgrading a used kayak for my nephew, I came across the forum, and it rekindled my desire to get back in a kayak. Initial results were discouraging. However, by the end of last year, I reconditioned myself to approach within 1/2 mph of average speed that I could acheive 10 years ago when I was 60 yrs old. I hadn’t regained enough strength to push up out of the cockpit, until Thursday when I was able to lift myself out of the boat without the ungainly process of rotating my body to push off from the rear deck.
Your suggestions are great options. While paddling last year, I met and talked to a guy in a 17 ft 10 Impex Assateague (22.5 in wide, 13.75 deck). We paddled together for a short run. It’s a fast boat that went on top of my list, but its too tight a fit. Additionaly, reviews suggested that it isn’t the best choice for my needs.
A shop about 1 hr 45 min away had a 155 Delta GT. The 24.5 in wide, 13 inch deck was comfortable, roomy and didn’t feel claustrophobic. Not having the time to test paddle it that day, it found it was sold when I returned the following week. So far its been hard finding another in stock to test paddle. Your reply reminds me that its time to start looking again, because stores appear to be restocking product. There’s also an expedition model with a higher deck, but a minor width difference. The below screen shots sum up what I found that focuses my interest.
Now to your question about how much money am I willing to spend. At this point in my life, cost is incidental. My primary criteria is comfort, stability, weight, speed, in that order. I’ve seen a few comments about the Delta kayak as a brand, and some about the Delta 155, but no replies to several specific posts about the GT or the Expedition models.
My reluctance about the Delta had to do with the ThermaFoil. I like the incredible durability of the plastic hulls, but my research so far looks favorable about the ThermaFoil. The greatest point is the lighter weight and lower cost, compared to fiberglass or composite boats. The 175 Tsunami is my favorite boat, but its too long for the truck bed, and the weight is hard to lug around. It was no problem when I bought it as a young buck in my late 50s. I haven’t been able to transport it since selling my 1995 Chevy S10 with a cantilered ladder rack. That was remedied last week when I installed a ladder rack on my Colorado.
Many kayakers I know like to stop and observe. Stability is important to me, because I like to observe as well. The difference with me is that I don’t slow down but turn to observe as I paddle by, moving on to the next sight.
Magooch, Im kicking myself. I finished the post and Called Shanks Mare on the Susquehanna below York, PA. Last year, their only GT in stock had been sold by the time I returned the next week. They just sold the last 155 Delta GT they had and their allocation is done for this year. Day late and it doesn’t matter how much it costs. I looks like REI carries them, but I won’t buy unless I test paddle it. Thank for putting a fire under me.
This is the boat that I bought. I’m very happy with it. I’m tall (6’), not small (~230 lbs) and I fit in it fine. I do find that my feet get numb after awhile when paddling it, but I have that same problem when driving, too, if I don’t have adequate thigh support, so a paddle float lifting up the edge of the front of the seat solves the problem for me.
The boat is fast and has tons of cargo capacity (weight limit 400 pounds) and I think it looks good, too.
It’s the only kayak I’ve owned, mind, so it’s tough for me to compare to anything. It is a bit on the heavy side (just under 50 pounds) for me to easily get it on top of my car without help, but I can do it. I may eventually have to get a Thule Hullavator as I get older.
I do have plans to get a modular or folding kayak as a second boat, for me when travelling further but also for my wife to paddle when we go together. She has tried a couple of 10’ rentals and really prefers a longer boat. Something in the 12-14’ range will be perfect for the second boat.
Photojim, you’re the person I’ve been looking for. I gather that you’re talking about the GT rather than the Expedition. I’m the same height and weight with a shoe size 13 wide. My model 145 Tsunami is 24.5" w/ 16" deck @ 56 lbs. My 175 Tsunami is 24 w/ 15" deck @66 lbs. Its a perfect fit, but the weight is nasty. I can carry the 145 on my shoulder, but can no longer do it with the 175, because it kills my knees.
So far, the Delta is one of the few boats that’s 24" wide, and even with a low deck, it felt comfortable. The first thing that attracted my attention was the light weight of 46 lbs for a 15.5 ft boat. I’d need to paddle it a while to make sure it doesn’t over stress my feet and knees; its hard to twist them beyond 45°. I like the moveable seat base, which not only makes it easier to get in/out, but I’m curious to see if it helps with weather cocking. Everything I read says the boat is stable and it accelerates fast.
The load rating is the same as the 175, but the 145 load rating of 350 lbs is fairly conservative. I would believe it has an avg cruising speed of between 4.5 and 5.0 mph over 10 miles. Looks like I have to do a search and might have to take a road trip. Thanks for the tip.
One thing I have learned over the years is that one should always test paddle a boat you are interested in. Not so much to make your final decision about a particular boat, but I have paddled so many boats that looked about right, but was very disappointed in their feel and performance. On the other hand, my very favorite boat was somewhat less than impressive the first time I paddled one of them. Once my sperience caught me up with the abilities of the boat, I began to realize this boat is capable of anything and then some. Hopefully every paddler will find the right boat. They do exist.
You’re absolutely correct. The problem with a stable boat is that a sport boat doesn’t feel as comfortable, yet the sport boat becomes more comfortable as the conditions deteriorate. Especially if you develop skills.
I’m good with the comfort. I like the challenge up to a point, but not so much that it becomes too much like work. Its odd how we each have a different threshold for adventure. I learned to accomodate my limitations at an early age
My oldest sister took me roller skating when I was a kid. After several outing, her husband’s nephew came along. I was giving him tips, since it was his first time. Within a few hours, he was skating backwards. I still had trouble turning, and realized I would never excel at roller skating. Later in life, he became a dentist. I took up kayaking in placid waters. I let him work on my teeth until he retired. I was proud of the fact that we were the same age, but I retired first.
The grest thing about the forum is that you don’t have to look far for stories of talented thrill seakers who enjoy living on the edge. As Steven Wright would say, “Did you ever lean back in a chair and catch yourself, then lean back and catch yourself? I feel that way all day long!”
I like to get in a kayak to even out those bumps.
Hi jyak,
Yes, I have the 15.5GT - sorry for not being clearer!
I find it really easy to board (and I get in butt-first and am not short). The boat is very stable (it feels tippy when boarding, but the secondary stability is extremely good) and (to me, with limited experience) it does seem to accelerate fast.
I have kayaked with friends with ten-foot boats and they are very envious of mine. I think they have longer boats in their plans now…
I forgot to post the reviews that made me look at the Delta vs the Impex Assategue. Paddling next to that boat was impressed me. It was the first time I felt like “my hands were course and my boots were thick!” I envy you kayakers with a normal build, because you fit easily in those beautiful thoroughbreds.
Cockpit on my CD Extreme hulls are 29.5" x 15.5 I’m 6’ 240 lb 38" waist bigger on top and slip in them. It’s about methods to get in and being flexible. Even when I was 25 lb. heavier I got in them some what ok. Now my waist is a loose 38". I’m 70 in Dec 
Maybe Ill try a tighter cockpit.
Congratulations on discovering some new fun in a kayak. I’m guessing that was the Fort to Field 50. What a beautiful stretch of river. That’s home for me, and I really enjoyed paddling it. I have to admit, I was feeling the pain between checkpoints 2 and 3, but we took a nice break at checkpoint 3, and with the change in direction in relation to the wind, checkpoint 3 to the finish in Springfield was enjoyable. Everything from swimming in Lake Francis Case the day before the race just above Fort Randal Dam at the start, to getting a picture of 3 new generations around an old wooden mascot of the USDS Pointer (where my mother went to college) in a bar in Springfield, it just felt really good to be home.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p6gUtTaG8FkdTQCqBXU9I4fcvs9WqMUJ/view?usp=sharing
Going from a Loon 120, it won’t be difficult to find something more efficient. Some designs and some paddlers put a premium on keeping a low front deck. Other designs and paddlers put a premium on having some room under the front deck to enable a more ergonomic powerful forward stroke. For a race like this, I definitely favor comfortable room, and believe that it will work to your advantage over a tight fit. I hope you find something to your liking.
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Yep, that was the firt to 50. We stopped at the first checkpoint. The wind came up pretty good. We will be better prepared for next year.
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Hi VVXT!
hopefully I can help you here, I have several boats and I can relate to where you are coming from.
Boats in the stable:
- Wilderness Systems Aspire
- Field and Stream (14 ft something for fishing.) Eagle Talon or Eagle Run cant remember.
- Fusion 124 (cheap Dick’s Boat for knocking about in.)
- Two Ocean Kayak Banzai’s for my son and a friend.
- Wilderness Systems Pamlinico - My son and I go fishing in this.
- Dagger Kaos - Gotta have my ocean surfing…
- Perceptions Dancer - Old school 3m boat…
- Coleman 3 person Canoe. (Used once - Gotta sell.)
And my favorite.
- Wilderness Systems Tsunami 175.
10 Winderness Systems Tsunami 145 - Just got it for my son for some races this summer.
this is just so you know where I come from and my paddling experience, so onto the meat of your question.
Since I haven’t used the 145 Yet, just picked it up a week ago My experience with the Tsunami will be limited to the 175.
I bought the 175 for of all things camping with it’s high payload capacity it allows me to put a metric ton of stuff in it. So it’s funny that I never used it for it’s intended purpose.
Instead I’ve been in races with it and done pretty well.
I was in the Dam Bridge Challenge in 2019, I was the only 50+ year old person entered in the 10mi race. I came in overall 9th
First 7 were Surf-Skis piloted by 20 somethings. I think the oldest one of the bunch was 27. These boats were supposed to be excluded but for some reason they included them in the touring class.
The 8th was a kid 29 years old in a Roto Molded something or other, he said he picked it up at REI. I was closing in on him and if I had another 500 yards I could have been 8th, my boat was faster, but he was younger so he didn’t run out of gas until the last quarter mile, I was out of gas about a mile further back.
My time including the turn-a-round (which sucks in a Tsunami, they turn eventually even with edging and full rudder.) was 2 hours 1 minute and 23 seconds. (His was 2 hours 1 minute and 1 second.) So my average time was almost 5 Mph.
I ran the Walnut st. To Walnut St in Philly in 2021 which involved going down the Schuylkill river to the Delaware and up the Delaware to the Seaport Museum (on Walnut street.) This is a 15 mile race, with pretty much flat-water on the Schuylkill river, but on the Delaware we had 18" chop and with River Traffic (Cargo Container ships.) you could get 24-30" waves. The race is 7 miles on one river and 7 on the other.
My time there was 4 hours 5 minutes and 36 seconds. (I did have a 30 minute layover in NJ to repair my rudder cable.) so really 3 hours 35minutes and 36 seconds of paddling.
I started out as 54th in a procession of about 200 boats. (I was middle of the pack of the touring boats.) The started the Rec-boats after us. In that race I came in 1st. the next boat to come in was a Current Design, they were 30 minutes behind. I claimed my Beer for winning and had drunk it and was getting geared up to take my boat to the car. Yes I was carrying my kayak cart in the Hold.
I credit my win to the fact that the rolling waves coming up the Delaware, helped me as the tsunami not being a rocker, allowed me to surf the waves whereas it hindered everyone else. Since while I was fixing my rudder about 15 boats got out in front of me during that pit stop.
I had over Christmas bought a Whiskey Paddle (aqua-bound I think) and was dying to test it, however I was injured in march in a car accident so when I finally got out a week ago I was pretty much out of shape and my torso rotation is compromised however I was still able to hit and maintain 5mph on my Tsunami for about 2 miles. (GPS measured.) but after that I was spent.
however from previous experience 5.6 mph is the maximum speed I can attain, and I can’t maintain it for more than a thousand yards. 5.2 is the maximum speed I can attain and maintain for any distance usually depending on water conditions between 2 and 5 miles. around 4.2-4.6 Mph the boat and I seem to be able to do all day. (when in shape obviously)
So I will tell you this despite there being fancier and lighter kayaks, the wilderness systems seem to have good lines and good efficiency at the water line. From paddling all the other boats I have Longer is faster, not so much in getting up to speed Inertia and drag hinder you here, but once you are at speed longer is easier to keep at speed.
The Tsunami and the Tempest share similar lines, though the Tsunami is a hard chine, whereas the Tempest is a soft chine and has a bit more rocker than the Tsunami, but not as pronounced as other touring/sea kayaks. So you should be able to produce numbers close to mine. additionally the Skeg Vs the Rudder aspect, due to the triangular nature of the skeg it produces less drag than the rudder on my Tsunami (which hits me for about .6-1 mph penalty.) I’ve paddled the Baffin P3 boat and couldn’t notice a difference between skeg and No skeg.
Now just so you can level set because physical attributes play into this as well, I’m 6’4" and 250lbs, and prior to my injury used to sit when not on the water in the rowing machine at max resistance turning a 2.05 minute 500/m for the 45 minutes I worked out. for the last 5 minutes I could sprint to 1.49 per 500/m. So this was the condition I was in prior when racing.
So your mileage might vary, though another user here Jyak posted similar times in his Tsunami.
The other thing is the Tsunami and to an extent the Tempest are Displacement hulls, so at I think at 75%-90% you maximum theoretical hull speed, is going to be the easiest to paddle or I should say up to that, beyond that for each .1 mph your going to have to add power logrythmically So you can calculate how fast by measuring your boat (with you in it.) at the waterline and plugging that length in a hull speed calculator from there take about 75% to 90% and in that range will be your actual sustainable speed depending on fitness level.
Hopefully this helps you out, I know it’s alot of information to unpack so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Oh and just so you know size wise both the Tsunami 145 and Tsunami 175 have roughly the same cockpit size atleast in width the other dimensions deck height and cockpit lenght are within .5 inch or less of each other.
Now I’m a big guy 6’4" tall 33" inseam, weigh in when in shape at 250 and right now I’m a fat bastard at 260. and have a 44" waist. and there is ample room for me in both the 145 and 175 Tsunami. (I think the interior hip room is 19 or 20 inches.)
Craig_S, my times are similar, but you are still the beast. I’m made a good recovery last year and after a slow start this year of five trips, I’ll match last year. I just modified my harbor freight ladder rack so I can get my 175 out of mothballs.
I was disappointed when you mentioned the accident. Well your son has his boat. Get reacquainted and back up to standards and maybe we can connect at Charlestown on the North East River.
I love Tsunamis but taking one to a race is like taking a sword to a gunfight. Sideline me some pictures of the new boat.
don;t know so far Ive been winning, so for me it’s like bringing a howitzer to a gun fight.
maybe it’s that 10mi and 15 mile are more endurance races and though i’m not built for speed stamina I have in spades.
I am high angle when it comes to paddling, Ive tried low angle but just cant get the hang of it, too much high angle from my whitewater days I suspect.
What I do to measure a paddle for me Is stand it up on end and stretch my arm up over my head and grip the blade. If I can curl my fingers (at the knuckle.) over the blade it’s in the ball park, and is usable for all my boats, SOT, Rec and touring.
If I really want to be scientific about it I use a paddle calculator or use the simple charts on Aquabound’s site.
or here: this will give you charts for high and low angle paddling.
but for me at 6’4" 230 it pretty much my all around goto, and for my touring boat 220-225 is my goto.
Jyak,
it happened in 2019 when I was looking for a touring boat.