$750
Was it not for the bent hull (slightly but visibly) I’d have bought it as the price I thought was reasonable for its condition otherwise. As it is - I can’t be sure it’s worth anything without paddling it to see if it tracks straight or not.
Thanks, there is one on Craigslist . . .
. . . Apex, NC for $1,100.
Sounds like that boat
may be a second. Of the 5 or 6 Hurricane boat I have seen none had glue of the outside of the hull where the deck and hull meet. True the seam around the skeg box did not look the best (a lot of extra glue) but that is inside and personaly I would like to much glue there than to little. Plus, the curved hull make me think it is not a first line boat. Current owner my not know that, if it is a second.
As for the flex, my deck does flex a little. Have not noticed the hull flexing but it may be. Still it has less flex that a RM boat and will not deform over the racks on a hot day.
I like my tracer it seems to be a good product at a good price, but it may not be for everyone.
Hope you find what your looking for and get on the water soon
happy paddling
Dave
Tracer vs Fathom
I felt I needed to add my voice, since mine is the Tracer for sale on craigslist in Apex.
I own both a Tracer and an Eddyline Fathom. I agree with most the comments made on this thread - that the Fathom is a better boat, but it’s also more expensive. My only real issue with the Tracer is the cockpit fit, and that’s very much a personal thing. It demo’ed OK, but just plain wasn’t comfortable for me after an hour or so. In contrast, the Fathom fits and just feels natural. The Fathom also has better initial stability, IMO, which I prefer.
Both are good boats. One is somewhat less expensive than the other. I’m convinced that thermo-molded pastic is the way to go, and the materials and finish on both boats are comparable. The Fathom, again IMO, has somewhat better attention to detail.
Cheers,
David
Tracer
I have an older Tracer (2003) that I bought in the fall of 2005 when the dealer was liquidating unmoved merchandise. The Trylon was, and continues to be, after 3 seasons of use and outside storage, very shinny without any color fade. The hull is rigid and does not flex when underway - the deck flexes a little bit when pressure is put on some of the flater and wider spots.
I found no build flaws what so ever. No glue slop - seams nice and straight, cockpit coaming and hatch lips all glued in properly with no leakage at the seams.
Boats are like cars - some come off the assembly line in perfect condition, some come off with problems. A good manufacturer tries to minimize the problems, but its the job of the consumer to be on the lookout for flaws when you are contemplating a purchase.
David, …
– Last Updated: Aug-13-08 2:48 PM EST –
Thanks for posting here. Congrats on the Fathom! Price is an issue for me as you may have seen from my e-mail -;) and I feel that a Fathom may be in my future as well, when I get enough $$$ and if I confirm that it fits me well (had concerns where the thigh braces touch when I tried it).
Can you elaborate on the fit? When I sat in the other Tracer yesterday, I did think twice if the seat width would accomodate me over a few hours paddling or not. It was snug but not tight and I can't tell if it would be an issue after a few hours paddling without trying - it jsut feels good sitting on the grass -;). But that's something I can replace if need be as I've done in my other boat.
I am curious what particular discomfort did you feel and what is your size (if willing to share that is). Was it the seat, feet/legs position, the thigh braces, backrest or what? Seat and backrest are not a worry IMO as they are easily and relatively cheaply replaceable, and I thought the rest felt fine for me
Thanks! And check your e-mail for a message from me on your Craigs list ad.
To set the record straight
Eddyline makes their own boats from start to finish.
Hurricane thermoforms the decks & hulls for Swift Kayaks and ships the raw forms to Swift. Swift then builds the kayaks at their own factory.
All ABS thermoplastic is not the same. There are many different formulas and processes. Carbonlite and Trylon are proprietary formulas for Eddyline and Hurricane, respectively, and are not the same.
Acetone eats all ABS plastics, so don’t use it to clean thermoplastic kayaks.
From Wikipedia:
“ABS is derived from acrylonitrile, butadiene, and styrene. Acrylonitrile is a synthetic monomer produced from propylene and ammonia; butadiene is a petroleum hydrocarbon obtained from butane; and styrene monomers, derived from coal, are commercially obtained from benzene and ethylene from coal. The advantage of ABS is that this material combines the strength and rigidity of the acrylonitrile and styrene polymers with the toughness of the polybutadiene rubber. The most important mechanical properties of ABS are resistance and toughness. A variety of modifications can be made to improve impact resistance, toughness, and heat resistance. The impact resistance can be amplified by increasing the proportions of polybutadiene in relation to styrene and acrylonitrile although this causes changes in other properties.”
“It is…made by polymerizing styrene and acrylonitrile in the presence of polybutadiene. The proportions can vary from 15 to 35% acrylonitrile, 5 to 30% butadiene and 40 to 60% styrene. The result is a long chain of polybutadiene criss-crossed with shorter chains of poly(styrene-co-acrylonitrile). The nitrile groups from neighboring chains, being polar, attract each other and bind the chains together, making ABS stronger than pure polystyrene. The styrene gives the plastic a shiny, impervious surface. The butadiene, a rubbery substance, provides resilience even at low temperatures.”
“While the cost of producing ABS is roughly twice the cost of producing polystyrene, ABS is considered superior for its hardness, gloss, toughness, and electrical insulation properties. However, it will be degraded (dissolve) when exposed to acetone. ABS is flammable when it is exposed to high temperatures, such as a wood fire. It will “boil”, then burst spectacularly into intense, hot flames.”
I find it interesting…
…how closely matched some of the designs are from these two companies:
Sandpiper vs. Santee 116 Sport
Slylark vs. Santee 116
Fathom vs. Tracer 165
Merlin LT vs. Tampico 135S
Equinox vs. Tampico 135L
To be honest
– Last Updated: Aug-13-08 8:32 PM EST –
I think the Fathom and the Tracer are as different as they can be - just about the only thing similar is the overall length of 16'6". The Fathom is probably at least a foot longer in terms of waterline, it is hard-chined vs. the soft-chined Tracer, it has very little rocker vs. the more rockered Tracer, etc. Material is the same type, but again there is a notable difference in quality of the hull and deck, not to mention the deck outfitting...
But the overal range is similar I agree - just like every car manufacturer has a range of cars, but can you compare a VW GTI with a Chevy Aveo, except for size?
Last I saw
Eddyline was forming their own hulls and decks… on a really cool machine I might add.
To clarify my earlier post re Tracer
I inspected it very thoroughly and could not find even one blemish. My complaint about the seat not fitting is probably only applicable to me since I see others, who are larger than me, have liked the Tracer seat.
As for the Fathom, the above comment that it just seems to fit right out of the box is exactly how I experienced it. When I got in it and settled down I felt like the seat was custom made just for me.
To be honest, I’ve also complained on this forum about seats in Chatham 16, Yukon Expedition and whitewater boats from Perception and Dagger. I’m just fussy, so don’t let my seat comments re the Tracer put you off of buying one. The Tracer IMHO is a darn fine boat and well worth the modest price. Actually, I’m surprised they sell it so low since all the other thermoformed boats in its class are up the in the mid-$2000 range.
Kocho…
Regarding my issues with my fit in the Tracer…
The way the seat is attached to the boat, with vertical posts and round-headed bolts, makes the seat more narrow than it needs to be. I’m not that big a guy (wear size 32x30 Levi’s), but the seat was snug for me but useable, but too narrow for my wife. I also found that my legs didn’t fall naturally into position against the braces - I had to tension my leg muscles to get a firm fit. I tried adding lots of foam in various places, and that helped, but bottom line it just didn’t work for me.
As I said in my earlier post, fit is very much a personal issue, and I know lots of folks with Tracers who are very happy with them, as are some paddlers who have posted to this thread. In my case, I had pretty much given up on finding my “perfect” boat until I paddled the Fathom, and my wife and I were so impressed we immediately bought two. And thus, I now have the Tracer to sell.
Cheers,
David
My two cents
I own an Eddyline fathom, and have seen and inspected, but not paddled several Hurricaine boats. I picked the thermoform product for many of the same reasons other posters have mentioned. It’s rigid, can take some abuse and it almost looks like fiberglass. Hands down Eddyline is the better produced and assembled product. The fit and finish is at the top of the market and between the Fathom (hard chine)and Nighthawk (soft chine) models, either boat will fit the needs of most of the paddling community. I concur with previous posters that Eddyline is a leader in the market and produces their boats from beginning to end. It’s a fine “Made in the USA” company.
The Fathom is a fast gear hauler for larger paddlers, for smaller paddlers Eddyline also offers the Fathom LV.
In the industry I believe we’ll see more and more thermoform products hitting the market. There’s still a place for fiberglass and rotomolded, but thermoform is gaining significant market share.
Emanoh, I agree. The only reason I
don’t currently paddle an Eddyline is the height of all of their back decks. Every Eddyline has a reasonably high back deck, if they make a nice 17-19 ft greenland boat someday I will be there. What bothers me a little here is the fact that neither manufacturer has chimed in here to set the record straight. I really like Eddylines thermalformed boats, but I have not yet seen another thermalformed boat I would buy (quality). I beleive there is a company in Canada that is thermalforming but I have not one yet. I loved my Nighthawk ,but eventually grew out of it and needed a low back deck for where I was going. The company was great to deal with too.
Stiffness
With all of this talk about the stiffness of Eddyline vs. Hurricane, let me ask a basic question. What is the advantage of the extra stiffness? You read about this all the time in regards to cars, but they’re much more complicated beasts. I want to buy another boat next year and these both look interesting to me. Thanks.
Stiffness
I have two boats - fiberglass and rotomolded plastic. The Fiberglass is much stiffer and I can feel that in the water. It does not flex much at all, except the area of the hull under my thighs - I can occasionally feel that give-in slightly when goind over the top of a large steep ocean wave. The plastic boat I have in contrast flexes over any wave. Does that matter? probably not in terms of performance.
Some argue that sideways flex will decrease the paddling efficiency as some of the energy from your stroke goes into hull flex instead of forward motion. There may be something to this, but it probably only has a practical consequence for advanced race paddling.
Other than that, I think if the boat is strong, whether it flexes a little does not matter. Think of the skin on frame boats - they flex a lot and some think this is actually good as it absorbs energy from the waves rather than push the boat around as it would do with a hard-shell boat.
So, I think it really does not matter much for practical purposes on the water for almost all of us. It matters on the car rack and in storage more though. Most rotomolded boats on racks will deform in transport or when left alone on the beach where glass or the Eddyline/Hurricane/Delta etc. will not and that is especially true in the sun/high temps. This deformation is usually reversible and goes away within minutes of putting the boat on the water, so again, does it matter?
Stiffness
I’ve had glass and poly, now thermalform ABS (Trylon). Flexing is very pronounced only when getting it or out of the boat. Lean hard on the gunwales or deck when on land and it moves a lot, really surprised me the first few times. No noticeable flexing when paddling.
Eddyline
"Fathom (hard chine)and Nighthawk (soft chine)…"
What difference is there between the hard and soft chine? One easier to paddle than other?
Soft vs. Hard chine
In my limited experience with both types of boats (but not these particular boats), a soft-chined boat will let you smoothly lean and edge with a less pronounced transition b/w the points where you start and end your lean (or when you flip over, in the extreme case)
A hard chined boat has a more clearly defined transistion b/w upright and leaned position.
Soft or hard has no direct relationship to how stable the boat is at the edge - just how distinct is the transition in getting there from upright position.
Some say that hard chines create extra drag in the water. All else being equal, hard edges indeed create more turbulence. This may also translate in the boat being more or less affected by side shop, not only in loss of forward paddling efficiency. But don’t ask me to quantify - I have no idea if that can even be felt by the average paddler or not…
For example, in my hard-chined boat I can lean it sort of locks and stays there with minimal effort. My soft chined boat also leans with minimal effort and is just as stable at the edge, but does not stay there - I move it moves -;). Some people like one, some like the other…
Forgetting stiffness; forgetting price
I just wanted to get opinions of what people think is the better boat to paddle, regardless of stiffness or price. Both brands are available in my general area, but not at the same dealership. Thanks.