And…
What is the point, here? I get the difference between the different paddles and the commensurate difference in techniques but what are you trying to get across?
Practice more and better
Practice with the two paddles that did NOT result in 100% success. You might find that it results in a better roll with the other paddle, too.
That’s because (as others have said) the body mechanics are more important than what kind of paddle is used.
You say you have little flexibility, but why not gradually improve it? Even a little gain in flexibility might yield big improvements in rolling ability. Yes, I am talking about things like balance brace, not as an end in itself but as one thing to help loosen up your tightness.
great stuff
agree with that also
I know it’s an instructional phrase but for me it’s misleading.
paddles and boats
Well, I have two boats and 5 paddles that I enjoy in every combination. So the wing and GP get cycled along with the others and my mood. The GP is the newest of the 5, and I was surprised to find it more finicky for my roll than any of my others. I just want a reliable roll and have no interest in any fancy rolls, and prefer to spend more time paddling than rolling.
For flexibility I have been doing daily yoga for 25 years and have improved greatly, but a layback is an impossibility.
With the Onno wing I just tried my normal sweep roll and it was the most solid of any other paddle I have tried.
Just knee pressure and no hip snap.
paddle in rolling
– Last Updated: Apr-27-12 9:49 PM EST –
Second that.
There's a lot of paddle work that will do wonders in rolling. Though simly pulling down on the paddle isn't one of them... :-(
So to teach beginner rolling, the emphasis is to avoid pulling down on the paddle. Hence the talk of "all lower body"! Some people never gone beyond that and had ingrain in their brain the mistaken concept rolling is ALL lower body... ;-)
The OP might benefit from some help on way of getting the most purchase out of a GP paddle.
You say the greenland paddle is finicky
It doesn’t behave like the other paddles and uses different technique to make it efficient. The best way to develop a feel for the greenland paddle is to paddle with it. It takes time to learn how it works but it’s very rewarding when you put the time in with it and learn how it works, only then will you say, I get it. You’ll be amazed at what you might learn.
just talking of the roll
dong said of the GP: " It takes time to learn how it works…"
That is just my point. When I tried the roll with the wing, I just rolled up immediately and smoothly. The first time. Since that first time I have not failed a roll with the wing. And continue to fail regularly with the GP, also succeeding regularly. So I guess I agree that the GP takes time to learn how to roll with. That is what I mean by finicky for rolling.
I am aware that others have the opposite experience and find rolling with the GP easier. I have no argument with them.
I just thought my pool experience might be of interest.
I think perhaps the lesson here is
that if your rolling style is to put a great deal of reliance on the paddle then the euro or wing may work best for you but if your roll is based primarily on your body movement then the greenland paddle may work best for you.
No No No
– Last Updated: Apr-29-12 5:23 AM EST –
The GP can absolutely get you upright with no lower body effort. Lord, when you extend it you feel like you're cheating.
The way to get the most purchase from a GP is to sweep back; start sweeping FORWARD; come on up. It's exactly what the Innuit guy did in the old footage someone posted on the qajaqusa site.
Your right - I agree
– Last Updated: Apr-29-12 9:54 AM EST –
the extended GP is exactly as you describe. I was wrong to suggest otherwise.
I'm new to GP and teaching myself to roll a kayak right now so don't listen to me. I can roll the darn thing - by my technique is not yet developed and so my roll is not bombproof.
This might be slight off topic but my impression is that my natural instinct to put pressure on my paddle to basically brace myself up (no matter the paddle type) is NOT the right approach and the sooner I overcome that instinct the better off I will be in the rolling department. My goal is to be able to roll easily and reliably on both sides no matter what I have in my hands - GP, Euro, a stick, even nothing. The last thing I want to do is to select a paddle based on whether it makes it easier to roll.
I Dunno
Some people will tell you to learn the snappy, twisty, lower body thing first. Some will tell you to get a nice layback, mostly paddle roll first. EJ’s DVD suggests you learn the layback thing first then the snappy thing. That’s what I did. I think an extended GP is like training wheels on a kid’s first bike. A good place to start. A good snap developer is to lay the GP on the water next to your boat; go over; reach up and grab the middle of the loom, then twist the boat up with your knee.
Lay back roll -
– Last Updated: Apr-29-12 2:34 PM EST –
it seems like I ought to be able to do a standard Greenland layback roll in calm water with virtually no pressure on the paddle (and no hip snappy thing either) - just a very light and very slow extended paddle sweep with my back arched, my head tilted back and a little belly crunch at the end to get up on the deck. Basically just get into a balance brace position first and then sweep gently to the back deck and up. Easier said then done. I am finding the new dvd "This is the roll" extremely helpful.
But I am taking us off topic - sorry for that.
Not at all off topic.
Being able to lay back depends on the boat seat and one’s back. Many cannot lay back at all, due to some combination of the two. Me, for example. Nevertheless, with a properly executed sweep, with any paddle, there is minimal force on the paddle and one just pops up with a bit of knee pressure. The key is "proper’ execution. The question for those of us incapable of laying back is are some paddles more forgiving of doing a good sweep than others. I have found, to my great surprise, that for me the wing was the most forgiving since the blade seems to know where to go. The GP least forgiving because you have to tell it where to go. The Euro in between. No one should generalize from my experience.
Furthermore, I would not choose a paddle for my ability to roll with it. My choice is based on long distance efficiency/speed, etc. Then I try to roll with whichever paddle.
I guess I should try a wing sometime??
– Last Updated: Apr-29-12 5:57 PM EST –
I have never used a wing. So I'll defer to your experience. As between a euro touring paddle and a GP - I much prefer the GP when it comes to lilly dipping and long distance paddling which is most of what I do. Is the wing better for my sort of use?
better?
Well, I don’t think better or worse applies here. I can only relate my experience. After 25 years of paddling with unfeathered low angle Euros, Werner Little Dipper, Adventure Technologies Xception Tour, and Werner Kalliste, I acquired, 2 or 3 years ago, both a wing and a GP. One cannot just “try” either. Both require time to get the stroke right. I took separate instruction with both the wing and the GP, and now feel comfy with the forward stroke. My GPS indicates 0.1 to 0.2 kts increased cruising speed and lower effort, even in my slower boat, but ONLY when I am stroking correctly. I enjoy using both the wing and the GP, but if I had to choose only one paddle it would be the Kalliste. Fortunately I don’t have to choose.
Paddling is my interest not rolling. My only interest in rolling is being able to do it reliably, for the sake of safety. I can only do the sweep, equally on either side, extended and not extended. I used to do the C2C but find the sweep MUCH easier, and easier on the shoulder.
So far I am not reliable rolling with the GP, despite a GP rolling lesson.
No fancy roll
– Last Updated: Apr-30-12 2:35 PM EST –
I didn't mean to imply learning a bunch of Greenland rolls, just a sweep, maybe modified as in Kent Ford's DVD if you cannot do a full layback.
Balance brace practice would still help with body mechanics and flexibility.
I paddle with Euro paddles, not GP, but when I took a GP lesson last year and had an unexpected capsize while paddling with the GP, I rolled up easily using it--not in the extended position but the normal one. It is body mechanics that makes the roll. You are on the right track about not putting downward pressure on the paddle (regardless of paddle type). If your back is "square to the water", you will not need to pull down the paddle. And a good way to learn to instantly put your back in that position is to practice balance braces.