pool rolls with diff paddles

Took my Onno wing, Kalliste, Novorca GP to the pool for my first practice since last fall. I use either a sweep roll, or an extended paddle sweep. Since I am very inflexible, I cannot layback at all. All are unfeathered and I can roll equally on both sides. The Onno was set at 208, the Kalliste is 220 cm, and the GP is 223.5 cm (88 inches by 3.5).



The wing was by far the easiest and smoothest. The shape seems to lead the sweep in the correct direction. I never missed on either side. And it was never tentative. I popped right up every time.



A close second was the Kalliste. I only failed once out of many tries on each side, but after the failure was able to succeed on the second attempt. But it was sloppy too often



The GP was the most difficult; I succeeded about half the time and had to wet exit several times. Harder to know precisely the angle of the blade and less forgiving of bad technique. Perhaps if I could lay back. But, for me, the GP is the least reliable.

: )

I thought…

– Last Updated: Apr-26-12 8:20 PM EST –

...GP paddles don't have a "blade angle" to speak of, and was one of the reason why it's preferred by so many? (Plus the fact they have so much bouyancy, benefit of which I can attest to, when I tried a foam core paddle! :D )

disclaimer: I'm not a GP owner. Only "play" with one for less than 1/2 hr.

Also, most GP guys I see rolling were always doing extended paddle...

Technique
If your technique is good the GP will become effortless for rolling. It’s more forgiving and feels more natural. I had a hard time getting a roll until I used a GP.



You can roll without extending the paddle just like you would with a euro blade. I do it all the time. You also don’t need a full layback. What’s going on with your lower body is more importaint. Get some help and keep working on it.



Have fun!



Gary

Are you “forcing” your rolls?
If you are applying down-pressure (which is the case with many people who I’ve seen use extended roll because they can’t roll-up otherwise), then wing working best makes sense. The wing has the most power of the listed paddles, the Kalliste is next, the Novorka - the least.



So, check your roll technique. If you are “pushing” down on the water with the paddle, that explains it. You do not need a lot of flexibility to do an effortless roll (although it helps if you want to do one slowly).

"applying down-pressure"
In my experience the wing works best without much downward pressure so I doubt that is the explanation. My guess is there is a problem with GP technique.

For Me
The GP is the most reliable.

try…
…sculling once before attempting to roll?



I found bouyan paddle are a rolling aid because it wants to stays on the water surface during the setup. Sometimes when I have trouble getting high enough during setup due to boat shape, I would scull once while hanging upside down. That usually brought my paddle (and my body) to the surface. Then I can start the setup and roll.

I find the GP the most awkward to roll
with out of any paddle I have tried. A ‘Euro’ paddle is effortless for me. Wings feel good, just different. With a wing, when I pull on the blade (whether trying to roll, or move forward) I notice the blade wants to sweep a little bit. My guess is that the wing compensates for any downward pull you may have used.



As any devoted Greenland would probably tell you - do what works best for you (even if it is a big spoon paddle).

Actually, the paddle should not matter
Most of the roll comes from the hip snap and body position and the paddle contributes only a small amount. Watch the EJ video on improving the brace and roll. It is true that the GP has more flotation support but that can become a crutch. You should be able to roll with the paddle, no matter what kind, vertical. If you can hand roll, the paddle does not matter.

comments on comments
"GP paddles don’t have a “blade angle” to speak of…"



Not true.



"If your technique is good the GP will become effortless for rolling. It’s more forgiving and feels more natural. I had a hard time getting a roll until I used a GP. "



Unfortunately my technique is not good. With my poor technique, the wing so far is 100% reliable. For me, the GP is much less reliable. I do wish to generalize to others.



“Are you “forcing” your roll? If you are applying down-pressure (which is the case with many people who I’ve seen use extended roll because they can’t roll-up otherwise), …So, check your roll technique.”



Yes, I am often forcing my rolls, with the GP especially. My technique, as I stated, is not great and I have been working on it for about 30 years. The wing was the most significant improvement.



“My guess is there is a problem with GP technique.”



No doubt about is. There is a problem with my GP technique. I find it much harder to get good technique with the GP. You have to know what you are doing. I can easily roll with the wing without knowing much.



“For Me The GP is the most reliable.”



I am not surprised. Different people will have different results.



“Most of the roll comes from the hip snap and body position and the paddle contributes only a small amount”



My sweep does not have a definite hip snap. I find the paddle contributes a lot.

comments on comments on comments…

– Last Updated: Apr-26-12 10:14 PM EST –

"My sweep does not have a definite hip snap. I find the paddle contributes a lot."

I second that.

I can roll C2C or sweep. The former, with a strong hip snap. The latter? Don't need one. You just need a bit of knee pressure and you...just comes right up!


" I find it much harder to get good technique with the GP. You have to know what you are doing. I can easily roll with the wing without knowing much."

Perhaps you should consider getting some good instructions?


"My technique, as I stated, is not great and I have been working on it for about 30 years. The wing was the most significant improvement."

30 years is a long time to be using poor techniques. Bad technique puts more stress on the body too. Not good for paddling into your sunset years...

Sad
that after 30 years…this is your conclusion. It says more about your style than about any of the mentioned paddles. it’s not really about the paddle.



I apologize for posting this video again, I made it a few years ago to show how little difference there is between the paddles…I didn’t have a wing with me or would have included it too.{wings roll fine too} I’m on dial up so this is a very short clip



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o7lR5E4Oi4&feature=g-upl



Best Wishes

Roy

When I first started using a greenland
Paddle I had a hard time rolling with it. It took a couple years of constant paddling, rolling and lessons to develop good technique. Since you lack flexibility it will hold you back in your technique development. The greenland paddle is made to be sculled for support. Give it some time to learn how to use it. There is a wide variety of styles and dimensions of greenland paddles that work differently, so trying a different style might work better for your needs. Learning to use a greenland paddle efficiently will give you better paddling skills for any paddle you might use.

Don’t worry, be happy
Sad? Not me. I have been enjoying once or twice weekly paddling for a long time and continue enjoying. But you are right that it says more about my style.



The gent in the video is able to lay back to a degree that I cannot remotely approach. I am somewhat satisfied with my roll, but don’t practice enough, or work on skills much. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Yes, Sculled for Support
Bracing with a Euro I’d push down on the paddle and it gave me lift. You get the same, if not more lift when you push a GP down and FORWARD.



I was surprised and pleased to see old 1920s or 1930s footage of an Innuit guy rolling his kayak. Turns out I roll like he did! He finished his roll pushing his paddle down and forward.

Descibe what you mean when you say
forward. Not 100% sure I understand.

Sweep Maybe?

– Last Updated: Apr-27-12 4:30 PM EST –

I ain't no fizisist but I think the GP acts like a foil or an airplane wing. You don't get much purchase just pulling down on the thing but if you sweep forward or backward as you pull down it 'bites' the water. It feels great.

Wing sweep?
I always found the wing next to impossible for a smooth sweep. I usually pick it up and place it for rolling.



I don’t doubt you and to each their own. For me it what I dislike about a wing, is it’s ability to sweep or scull or glide on the water unless it’s upside down. If it works for you, that’s good.



Doing a half paddle roll with a GP will be more challenging than a euro or wing for it’s purchase. You do realize the GP users hold the blade?.

I’ll Add This

– Last Updated: Apr-27-12 4:35 PM EST –

After you get the feel of that GP scull, lift, bite thing you don't need no stinkin' "hip snap".

I get tired of reading posts saying that the roll should always be a lower body thing. It's not true. Roll up most all knee; all paddle; half & half. Once you acquire some of what EJ called 'paddle dexterity' you don't always need 'snap'.