The learning process sounds just ducky: discomfort, lack of oxygen, panic, possible injury. :o
@Rookie said:
The learning process sounds just ducky: discomfort, lack of oxygen, panic, possible injury. :o
That about sums it up. But you still want to roll. I know you do.
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@Rookie said:
The learning process sounds just ducky: discomfort, lack of oxygen, panic, possible injury. :o
But, once you go through it, a whole new realm of paddling venues and opportunities await you. 
WW playboating and surf paddling really are about spending a chunk of time upside down and not worrying about it. That’s what makes it “fun.” 
Cowabunga!
sing
Yes, Rookie. That’s the kind of people we are. I realized my everyday road bicycling (racing) fits all your descriptive words except I really don’t panic much.
Hey @sing, I did learn how to surf on Lake Superior. Baby waves, but it was still fun. Stayed upright too, although I broached once. Coach thought I’d go over but I fooled him. Was the best day ever and a big confidence builder.
But I don’t wanna normal!
Yes it is for sure not intuitive for me at all.
I’ll see about getting video, but I’m having a minor medical procedure tomorrow and will have to stay dry for 10 days. Which isn’t a bad thing I guess because I’ve paddled a ducky or raft 7 of the last 9 days plus roll clinic. It’s time for a little break. and hopefully I’ll come back refreshed and refocused.
Rex, luckily for the most part, I won’t be in a sound alone. Not that I want to depend on other people, but I should be able to find people to paddle with almost everyday if I want. The few guides I know introduced to me more guides who introduced me to more guides. At this point I’ve got a list of a couple dozen people who’s lives revolve around water. After they guide all day, they go down the river again for fun.
As far as discomfort, it’s not so much. It’s just really unnatural. The combination of movements isn’t like anything else I’ve ever done. I haven’t been wearing googles but I have been using a nose plug about half the time and the other half just dealing with it. Hah that part is actually uncomfortable. Water in my nose sucks. But I hate the nose plug already and can almost guarantee I won’t be wearing it regularly in the future. The lake I was in yesterday was uber murky. I could just barely see the blade of my paddle and lots of brown.
Once I can roll from my strong side I’ll work on my offhand side. I don’t think I’ll get discouraged. It’s like a really cool 3D puzzle or like moving through laser beams trying not to trip the sensor. Rolling is also my gateway to the river with the guides. That’s the one condition for being able to go with them in a hard boat. And the river holds lots more really cool 3D puzzle for me to work on so I want to unlock that door ASAP!
Rookie I think they are making it sound worse than it is to a degree. At least at the stage I’m at now. Even in a lake with only 3 feet of visibility it’s not very scary. You only have to hold your breath for less than a minute, usually much less. Now the first time I’m upside down in a class III without an instructor right there and my helmet is bouncing off rocks, that’s gonna be terrifying!
I practice with goggles. They don’t help me at all with the roll, which works fine with or without goggles. But the Canadian Geese hang out there sharing their E Coli … so the goggles help protect my eyes, I hope.
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@rsevenic said:
I practice with goggles. They don’t help me at all with the roll, which works fine with or without goggles. But the Canadian Geese hang out there sharing their E Coli … so the goggles help protect my eyes, I hope.
Sure, blame everything on Canada… 
What about the water that gets on your lips? Seems that would be a good point of entry as well. Personally, I figure that frequent light exposure to all of the nasties around me helps build up the immune system.
@Sparky961 said:
@rsevenic said:
I practice with goggles. They don’t help me at all with the roll, which works fine with or without goggles. But the Canadian Geese hang out there sharing their E Coli … so the goggles help protect my eyes, I hope.Sure, blame everything on Canada…
What about the water that gets on your lips? Seems that would be a good point of entry as well. Personally, I figure that frequent light exposure to all of the nasties around me helps build up the immune system.
Maybe s/he wears them on his lips
Hey DryFlyTrout, When I was using the word ‘discomfort’ I meant mental discomfort. Anxiety is probably a better word. I remember when I first started rolling with no one else around. I was anxious bigly.
I did get blindsided and knocked over by a wave way out in a sound years ago. I freaked out and swam. A paddling buddy held on to my euro while I did a re-enter and roll with my GP. I did my best Scarlet Ohara “As God is my witness I will never swim again.” Well that’s been my goal anyway.
Lol Rex, it seems like what you do and what I’m trying to do are a little different. I’m fully expecting to have a lot more swims in my future whether I like it or not. On Sunday I made a really simple mistake. I came into a rapid way too fast, by the time I realized I needed to slow down I had already bounced off a rock and was 3/4’s of the way through the rapid without the ducky.
I think it’s sort of fun though. I’ve been talking to people about swift water rescue and that sounds awesome to me. But I guess doing things like swimming through strainers probably isn’t most people’s idea of a good time. One thing at a time though for now. I need to get this roll and then I can start planning on moving along to bigger and better things.
Once you get to the point at which you feel you have your flat water roll pretty much nailed, you will need to start practicing on the river. And don’t expect to be successful right off the bat.
Rolling up in whitewater is quite a bit different. You typically find yourself upside down where you least want to be and your nerves start to work on you. Knowing that there is a gnarly section of rapid or a sizable drop coming up just below, or that you will be looking at a really nasty swim if you miss your roll tends to make you tighten up. You don’t get good extension up to the surface on your set up, you rush the roll, and even try to muscle your way up out of desperation.
Being upside down in a hole is noisy and disorienting. It can be difficult to even orient yourself to the surface. Your paddle may have gotten a bit knocked out of your grip and you have trouble reorienting the blade for your roll. You often can’t see anything at all, and if you think getting water up your nose on flat water is unpleasant, wait till you get it blasted up your nose and into your sinuses (“shnorknozzled”).
And motionless flat water never works against you. In rapids and hydraulics the water is often highly aerated and simply will not support your paddle and upper body the way non-aerated flat water will. And if you are in current, unless you and your boat are moving at the same speed as the current, if you try to roll up on the upstream side, the current will be working against you, trying to push your paddle blade back under the surface.
When you get out on the river, start practicing your roll in current. Initially, always arrange to have your strong roll side (the side you come up on) on the downstream side. So if you set up on the left and roll up on the right, orient your boat so that the right side is downstream and tip over to the upstream side. That way the current will support your paddle and assist your roll. When you get very good at that, try tipping over the other way so that the current is working against you. If your roll fails, practice waiting until the speed of you and your kayak equilibrates with that of the water.
Find some very safe and non-retentive holes or hydraulics and with assistants at hand practice tipping over and rolling up in them. This will get you used to the noise and commotion. Try waiting upside down until your boat washes out of the hole and matches the current speed before rolling up.
Once you have all this down, practice deliberately capsizing in the rather calm current just above a tricky rapid or hole and rolling up. That will help teach you how to fight down the fear factor.
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> >
> And motionless flat water never works against you. In rapids and hydraulics the water is often highly aerated and simply will not support your paddle and upper body the way non-aerated flat water will. And if you are in current, unless you and your boat are moving at the same speed as the current, if you try to roll up on the upstream side, the current will be working against you, trying to push your paddle blade back under the surface.
>
So outside of the hydraulics of a hole or some other feature, somebody told me early on to just relax, count 3 seconds, so you equalize with the current and then roll up. This way you don't worry about being "upstream/downstream of the current (you are one with the current!). This really helps in eliminating the need for a second attempt. Inside a hole, or some other aerated feature, I find that if I blow a roll one side, I immediately take the momentum of going back into/under the water to attempt a roll on the other side because the hydraulics that worked against the roll on first side will help the roll on the opposite side. Of course, this gets into having at least some fluency with an off-side roll... ;)
It's all fun and games usually in class III and under (beyond that, flubbing a roll can be a bit more consequential...) LOL!
singUse of goggles while learning, often too much concern about this. I used them a lot because I started in a pool and even with eyes closed the chlorine wasn’t doing anything good for my eyes. I don’t open my eyes under water, never have except in a beginning scuba class where of course we did our dive with goggles.So all the goggles did was to reduce the irritation, but it was good.
I get the goose shit concern above. Jim and I found a coach locally to start us on the BCU stuff because of the impressive quantities of swan shit in the nearest place at the time with regular BCU instruction.
What is not mentioned much above is ear plugs. You can get a dandy case of otitis in the early constantly wet stages. Get Doc’s Plugs, tethered and vented, They send something to use to pick the right size,then you can order the ear plugs. https://www.proplugs.com/
I always wear nose plugs (homemade, coat hanger and minicell) when I’m in surf because I have a loose or lazy schnorknozzle valve. If I paddled ww, I would have to do the same.
I always popped on nose plugs ahead of a rapid in WW, even the low level stuff. I get the most awful headache, immediately, if I get fresh water up my nose. Don’t love salt water but it just makes me inappropriate for nice company for a while until everything drains. It doesn’t make me reach for tylenol.
@Rex said:
Hey DryFlyTrout, When I was using the word ‘discomfort’ I meant mental discomfort. Anxiety is probably a better word. I remember when I first started rolling with no one else around. I was anxious bigly.I did get blindsided and knocked over by a wave way out in a sound years ago. I freaked out and swam. A paddling buddy held on to my euro while I did a re-enter and roll with my GP. I did my best Scarlet Ohara “As God is my witness I will never swim again.” Well that’s been my goal anyway.
Bigly? Really? I’ll try not to learn that word.
Hey String, Da. I use word in honor of leader. Is good, nyet?
@qajaqman said:
I always wear nose plugs (homemade, coat hanger and minicell) when I’m in surf because I have a loose or lazy schnorknozzle valve. If I paddled ww, I would have to do the same.
Ok, you have my interest. Does the home made version work well? Can you post a picture or link? I need to replace mine soon, as the rubber is disintegrating and leaves black goo on my nose when I wear it.