Not sure about Prijon so
won’t comment on that. Years ago tested one for a magazine and it was a good all round well made kayak. Likewise Eddyline. Have not paddled the Merlin, but have a bit of time in a Nighthawk 16 and I like Eddyline. Nice boats, work well, good quality, well run company.
Looksha 17: Spike Gladwin design intended as a large capacity kayak for bigger paddlers needing room for gear and big sea ability. A good long distance tourer for guides and expedition paddlers. Quite playful for such a big kayak, and well balanced. Has the traditional sharp edges of the Looksha series. Not what I would put a small low powered paddler in, but very good for the big guys. Does a lot very very well with tons of stability. Guides in BC are using it for the capacity and enjoying it.
I’m lucky to know Spike on a personal level as a long time friend and surf kayaking pal. He’s the real deal and knows his trade.
Paddle all of them and you’ll know which is right for you.
I guess I just don’t …
… go through all this moral quandry about the purchase of a product , I’ll compare prices apples to apples and then attempt to buy at lowest cost … as for the dealer , they know if they can meet your low ball findings , they want to sell a boat , they ought to be happy to sell for less than advertised occassionally to a stiff shopper , they still make a profit although maybe not as much on your sale , that’s more $$ to them than if you didn’t buy their boat and purchase elsewhere … so what’s the outcome , the dealer made some profit and put another boat right back on the rack after you left with your new boat … what’s better for the dealer , keep a boat in inventory longer or sell it and put the next one up ??
If only that were true…
Your time & $
Factor in your travel to and fro as to what a day in the car is going to cost you in time and obviously gas $. If it’s $100-$200 difference then the less hassle of supporting your local shop, especially if they have been as helpfull as you indicate will ensure that they enjoy seeing you walk in the door and they will certainly continue such service in the future.
Support your local small business for without it, it’ll just be the big boxes and help there will ask “You want fries with that?”.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
Eddyline Merlin XT
Cross it off your list. It is a poorly-designed boat and Eddyline is not producing it any more.
Thank You Salty!
In my line of work, one of the most frustrating things is the occassional tightwad, or any person not familiar with construction, who expects us to perform our services in such a way that a portion of the process is done for free. In this case, part of the “process” is all the benefits you get from dealing with people who know their stuff - including what to do if you get a defective boat. I know the original poster is not (completely) disagreeing with this, but so many people have posted on this issue in the past who felt they deserved the lowest possible price (agian, not what the original poster is “fully” expecting) that I know that what Salty says here is important.
Eddyline
Thanks for the feedback on the Merlin. I know they are discontinuing it. This in and of itself is not a big issue to me, as all boats ( most ) will be discontinued eventually. I thought the build quality was pretty good on the one I looked at, and the thing that got me interested was a non-roto molded boat that was typically $2200 for $1500 new, putting it in my price range where a Thermo boat would normally be out of my budget. Having kind of narrowed it down to the Looksha 17, the Valley Aquanaut Club, and the Merlin, the Merlin is probably the lowest on my list unless it just paddles better than the others. I really like the Valley, actually, but coming from an old, clunky boat ( old school Aquaterra Chinook I inherited ), wonder if it is a little too sleek and nimble for my skill level ( stability ) at this point, but man, it is a nice looking boat, I fit in it nicely, I like the high quality plastic compared to other similar price boats. A test paddle will tell. I like the roominess and capacity and likely more stable idea of the Looksha as well, probably a little closer to what I am used to and my current skill level, but I also have been advised to buy a boat a little higher in skill level than what I am, to grow into, so the Valley may be a decent choice from that perspective. I wanted initially to look for a CD Sirocco, but could not find one in stock anywhere in my area to even look at let alone demo, so have crossed it off the list by default due to lack of access.
so my answer . . .
to this post is who do you want to screw?
MSRP is set so that everyone involved in bringing that boat to you gets a fair cut. The kayak manufactures got their full asking price from the dealer. The person building the boat was paid in full. The company that sold the manufacture the plastic didn’t take a 15% discount just because you thought MSRP was too much.
The price of the boat is the price of the boat. By offering you a deal, the shop owner is limiting their margin. If they do this often, it either means they deal in massive quantities (like walmart) or layoffs are in the future. A local shop in town which has had a reputable past, is now only open four days a week. You can’t survive on 10 percent margin.
Sure, when you request price quotes a dealer will offer you a discount. They are counting on you driving in, grabbing the boat, maybe an accessory or two, and leaving. I bet if you email those same vendors and asked “thousands of questions,” the quote would not be as low. They can low-ball your local shop because they do not have to work for your money. You’ve already decided what to buy based on “free” information.
By asking dealers to compete, you’re trying to figure out who doesn’t want your business again. If you always buy the lowest price, you’ll never spend money in the same store twice. That’s not a sustainable business plan. Instead, by freely providing information, the shop is investing in you as a future customer. They are trying to buy you not with price, but with good business practices.
And buy the way, a $1500 boat that is $200-$300 off is not a brand new, current model year boat, guaranteed. It has been sitting around and the shop owner wants it gone. Expect scratches, some denting, perhaps fading, and older outfitting. None of this disqualifies the boat from being an excellent craft, but it doesn’t make it an apple to apple comparison.
An example …
… Old Town MSRP on my 169 Disco is $979. and Bass Pro sells it for $600. to me , the other dealers I talked to over the years won’t come off the MSRP , what should I do buy the same exact boat at $979. or $600. , it’s a no brainer on my end … service , well Bass Pro is notorious for their customer service and I second that !! … so I figure the S in MSRP means “suggested” not a do or die must sell price … now I understand Bass Pro is huge and Ma and Pop is basically trying to hold the fort , so I can appreciate that too , but in many retail scenarios the markup at the retail end is huge $$ …
well…
I see what you are saying, but I think this is a little extreme. Does this mean you always pay MSRP for everything? I mean, when you buy a new car, you just pay MSRP, because obviously those at the factory, the dealer, etc, have decided for you what a fair margin is, and what they need to make? When you buy a new refrigerator, the first store you walk into, you buy it without comparing price to some degree at a couple of stores? I doubt it. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect people buying a new kayak to compare price a little bit, and to maybe make an attempt to negotiate a deal on a boat. Hey, the retailer is the expert on running their business supposedly, and is free to tell me to hit the road, to accept my offer, or to meet somewhere in between. I don't think it is a situation where it is an insult to even entertain the idea of a negotiation of some sort on a boat purchase.
I agree for sure that people need to make a living, but hey, so do I. This is why we have a competitive marketplace. I think just trusting the manufacturer and retailer to set a fair price for you the consumer, and then just paying it without question, is a little naive personally, but to each their own. Again, I never said price is my only concern. Value is my concern, which is price and service put together, and the best combination of these two things I can find in the marketplace.
I don't think negotiating price to some extent is "screwing" anyone. Any manufacturer has to expect some pressure from the consumer on price, and has to structure the efficiency level of their process to accomodate price pressure. According to the "screw" theory, in a transaction where less than MSRP is spent for an item, someone is screwed? How about the buyer being screwed when they overpay from fair market value? I guess if I pay less than full retail, I screw someone, if I pay retail, I am to consider myself lucky that the company lowers themselves to do business with me, and I should feel fortunate that they are generous enough to already have done the research for me as to what I should pay, so that I don't have to worry myself with that small detail?
I don't think it is quite as black and white as your post would seem to suggest. But, I thank you for the response, and appreciate your viewpoint. Take it easy.
yes
I would pay a little more to get a boat from a non-Bass Pro kind of place, because likely I deal with a more knowledgable sales person as far as kayaks go at the smaller shop, I get to demo, and they probably stock more paddling gear, etc. I can see the value in paying a little more to not buy from the big corporate box store. On the other hand, I’m probably not going to pay full list price on anything when I can buy it for a huge difference of say, 30% less somewhere else. But, I’d pay somewhat more, for sure.
markup?
It’s a fair question to ask what the usual markup is on a boat. For books, it’s 40% (so you’re paying a bookseller almost twice what she paid the wholesaler, which is why amazon does such good business.) For boats–does anyone know?
When you think of price differences, try to think in terms of percentages of the price, not the amounts. When I buy organic food, for example, I might be willing to buy organic for 25% more than conventional produce, but not for twice the price.
MSRPs don’t necessarily reflect any “real” price that’s fair to everyone. Think about cameras: MSRPs are wildly inflated.
With our local paddle shop, they’ll usually offer a 5 to 10% discount, depending on how nicely you ask (and how nice the boat is–for a lovely, expensive kevlar boat, they’ll give you a better % discount than for a cheaper boat). Your local shop is asking you to pay 11 or 12% more than a distant shop. Ask them to split the difference, and they might be willing to do so.
As wih anything you buy of equal quality
…seek the lowest overall price you can find.
Penny wise, pound foolish?
No harm, in my opinion, in shopping around. However, if you expect to continue paddling for years (and especially if you plan to remain in your current area), a good relationship with a good dealer is a good thing. From time to time, I’ve borrowed (not rented) a paddle, a boat, adhesive, and other odds and ends, from the shop at which I’ve purchased one new and one used kayak during the last three years. They know me, and I know them. And I like that.
A car is a bad example
Using car-buying to support your point of view is every bit as unrealistic as it would be for someone else to use buying a pair of pants as a way to make the opposite point. Maybe something along the lines of a new bicycle would be a closer comparison in terms of price, the type of business, profit margin, and client base (though bikes sell in huge quantities compared to “good” kayaks, and I don’t think bike prices are negotiable very often. They might knock a little off the total price if you buy other equipment at the same time (just like a paddle shop), but for you to flat-out tell them you want to pay less than what’s on the price tag? Hmmmm. I don’t think that would fly.
relationship
Agreed, relationship is of significant value. This is why, when finding a shop not too far away that had the boat for considerably less, I didn’t just give them a deposit over the phone and drive down there to pick up the boat. I thought to myself that I really liked the local shop, and that they had done enough work to earn my business if I could afford to buy there price-wise.
I figure if they’ll split the difference between the MSRP and the price the other shop quoted me, I’ll buy locally. That means I pay $140 more than I can get the boat not too far from here, and I save the same amount to spend right back at their store on a new paddle, PFD, whatever. Hopefully this will work for them and we’ll all be happy. $140 discount on an MSRP of $1729 is about an 8% discount. I don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask. Most of the merchandise I buy on a daily basis, be it clothing, tools, car parts, whatever, I see on sale with far greater discounts. Heck, every time I go into a retail store or mall seems like 1/2 of the merchandise is on sale for far more than 8% off list. Matter of fact, thinking about it, I don’t know too many retail operations where you pay full MSRP and the items are never on sale and there is no negotiation.
be open with the local dealer
you are clearly a nice, well spoken guy, if i can infer that from your voluminous and patient messages. if you find the local shop to be a good place to hang out, like the staff, good vibes, etc, mention your quandary to them. i’m with you, it’s enough of a difference to give pause to the purchase. you want to know why, fair enough. broach the subject in an easy nice manner, explain your situation. if they are decent folks, they won’t be offended at the question. they may not budge, but at least you will have been honest about how you perceive it. it’s good for shops to know about their competition, keeps them on their toes. if they get uppity about it, well then you have more motive to go elsewhere. for me, i find that all shops are substantially different enough, for me to choose where i want to do business based on the overall quality of the place. since most around here are generally brutal, it leaves the Cdn equivalent of REI, which is easy to buy from, cause it’s easy to take it back, or the only good paddling shop, up Island, which is where i buy anything substantial, price be damned. they are a grassroots shop filled with real paddlers, so that’s where i buy. i avoid the rest like the plague. that’s my bias.
I disagree with that one too.
I am on my third F-150 pick-up and my fourth Ford bought at the exact same dealer.
The last two trucks there was absolutely no reason to test, since that is what I wanted.
When I walked into this particular dealer, I had a price in my mind that I would pay.
They told me the price, and it was what I had in mind, so rather than waste a lot of time screwing around I bought the vehicle. I went out the door happy.
If you are happy with the boat, and their price either s–t or get off the pot.
I am guessing that you are a very young and over educated consumer.
Hopefully you will eventually find the boat and price that you want.
Perhaps you could get a real super deal in China!
cheers,
JackL
“it’s my belief …”
"Of course my belief is that the very folk who
price shop are the ones bitching about work going
overseas."
I've bought two boats at Alder Creek, one
discontinued, one at full price. ALWAYS support
my local specialist--in kayaks, books, and
produce. Not cheap. But making the kind of world
I want to live in. Maybe that gives me the right
to say: It doesn't take a great thinker to
realize that fat-cat capitalists following the
cheapest-labor/ lowest-environmental-regulations
trail to the detriment of everyone except
themselves/ their pocket books are behind "the
race to the bottom".
You're right about one thing though: It's people
who can't see beyond the nose on their face that
bitch the most at the consequences ("Surprise!").
Try selling one of your "Made in China" kayaks in
America when no one is left with an income/ has a
job.
The relationship you have started
with your local dealer is very similar to one I have with a dealer that is 200 miles from my home. When I was shopping for my Nigel Foster Shadow, I made the drive and although the owner wasn’t there, she left word with the shop, that I was to be allowed to paddle any boats they had and I could go anywhere with them - I was not restricted to staying inside Mission Bay. Also, there was no charge for my using there boats for an entire day.
I gave both the Shadow and an Explorer HV quite a workout in some very rough seas before deciding on the Shadow. I ordered one right then and there, even though I knew I could purchase one direct from the factory since there weren’t any dealers close to me and that I could save about $200 by doing that. However, I’d be giving up the “local service”.
This outfitter supports our local club, wrote a letter attesting to my skill letter for me to help in renting a couple of boats in Canada, and almost always gives me a discount on accessories.
I didn’t mind paying MSRP for my Shadow. There’s not much mark-up on new boats and the owner earned it. She gets almost all of my business as a result of the service that she’s given me. That $200 extra I spent, has paid for itself many times over.
Stick with the people who have been helping you----just my 2 cents.
I then made another