pilotwingz, I’ve been doing retail
since '81 and haven’t ever seen the ‘huge’ mark-ups on the retail end you seem to believe exist. Probably 95% of the boats we sell anymore are small rec boats, and after we figure in packing/shipping costs from the manufacturer (the only thing ‘huge’ here) there is little room for dickering. In fact, some hulls can’t be ‘special ordered’ singly anymore because the freight charges are beyond the mark-up, to make a profit I need to order 3+ boats (to get reduced per-boat freight charges) to make any profit on the one, and then I’ve got a lot of my $$$ tied up in 2 other boats simply to make the one sale. And the next time someone wants that same model boat, I assure you they will want the color you don’t have! I’ll admit profit can and is made on composites, and I do have some room for ‘play’ after freight charges, but composite sales are far and in between anymore. And the one thing I’ve seen over all these years in retail is, a lot of folks think IF you make $50 mark-up on an item, that $50 goes in your pocket! Far too few folks seem to have any understanding in the actual costs of running a business, from taxes paid to utilities/payroll/rent/cost of inventory/advertising/health insurance, etc, etc. Anymore, IF I actually pocket anyware near 10 cents on any dollar sold, I’m a happy man.
bingo
sounds like
you still haven’t decided and you’re letting price determine your choice of boats. I’d spend more on rentals and wait for that one in ten deal that come from bargain hunting. Slowly accumulating paddle/pfd/gear from your local shop.
Price Negotiation
Kayak shops make very narrow margins of profit on boats. Usually around $200.00 to $400.00 on most boats. Also, alot of small shops, and most are, have closed in the last year or so. Support your dealer whenever you can. Just a thought. VF
As usual this thread is
becoming a philosophical debate of sorts. I think there’s not a right or wrong approach. It’s a matter of making a choice which will have an impact one way or another. Not good or bad, just perhaps an evolution of how customers and products come together.
I sure don’t judge someone who chooses to save all they can. I make decisions that work for my model and make me feel good. I personally think that the big box model hurts lifestyle long term in many communities. Yeah, ya get your underpants cheaper etc., but the trickle down has community impact. Is my model right? Who knows…just works for me, and I like the idea of small businesses providing great service and being part of a community. I choose to pay more as a means to support my beliefs.
Having said all of that I have had great experiences with some big box management folks who genuinely care about customers and providing great service! So I don’t know the answerand default to listen to your gut!
BTW, some so called specialty shops are just little boxes with poorly trained low paid workers…probably secondatry to a very competitive situation.
It’s a constant change, and maybe the specialty folk are on borrowed time…or will have to be creative in adding value that folk will pay for??
What kind of mark up do the
dealers who post here have? By markup I mean how much do you pay for, say, a high end F/G or Kevlar job in a 17–18’ sea kayak–in 08, and how much do you sell it for? Assuming of course that you care to divulge that information.
I disagree about the Merlin XT
It's a great boat. I'm sorry I sold mine. Bohemia has said much the same.
Every boat is going to eventually be discontinued - that doesn't mean anything's wrong with it. Maybe it just doesn't get a big enough share of the market to be profitable.
I could name a couple of other boats that have been discontinued, that if I could buy one now, I would.
p.s. Good move, crossing the Sirocco off your list. I owned one for short time - hated it on anything other than flat water. Just one person's opinion.
mbrickell’s dilemma
Your seem to have a lot of time on your hands condidering how much time you have spent, talking to kayak shop personnel, as long as you say you have, and also considering the lenght of your dissitation on the price of a new kayak. I would advise you to lower your price range and spend your energies shopping for a good “used” kayak. Maybe you could save yourself $400 to $800 dollars.
Solution
The solution is simple.
If the local dealer has the boat you like, you ask, "is that the best you can do on the price?" They will either say "no, I can let you have it for 'X'", or, "yes, there's not much markup on boats, but I can let you have 'Y%" off paddles and accessories."
future question…so what’d ya’ get?
Or did you spend the season negotiating?
Good point Donna
In fact, one way to make a model popular it seems is to discontinue it! Nostalgia grows and suddenly it was awesome…why did ya’ll stop making it?
Bitting my lip on this thread…
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Just bit it off…
me too…
That’s the problem with being ANALytical. You can’t make a decision!
Andy
Common sense and common courtesy
If your local shop has been as accommodating as it sounds, I would tell them what the competitors’ prices were and ask if they could come down a little. Expecting that they could not actually meet the lowest prices you found, though.
If you had not taken up their time several times already, my advice would be to buy the one from the shop with the lowest price, but this is not the case.
Me too. Thread a bit of a joke!
Waste of bandwidth. Potential buyer is just kicking tires, and hasn't apparently even considered the concept of making an offer. Ho hum...
Rule to live by: If you can't afford to buy something retail, then you are not yet truly ready to buy. Then, when you have the cash scraped up, and you get a bit of a deal, good for you. If not, then you bought exactly what you saved up for. Only thing more of a P.I.T.A. for a business than someone with no money wanting a bargain is someone WITH money wanting to haggle just to feel victorious. As has been said by others, put yourself in the shop owners shoes.
If you have the money, figure out a realistic offer, and make it, already.
dealing with the dealer
I had a similar problem. The dealer near me was posting a price about $200 more than a dealer in Virginia. He said the guy in VA was selling under costs, but that he would give me a 10% discount on the boat and 20% on any accesories I wanted for the next year. He also asked were I live. I told him I lived in Delaware. Since he was ten miles over the state line he would agree to “sell” me the boat in my state. By doing this he would be able to sell the boat with out any sales tax, since my state does not have a sales tax. The combination he offered was much better than the $200 price savings. Don’t be afraid to negotiate, but don’t try to take advantage of the guy.
kicking tires
Not kicking tires at all. Cash in the bank ready to spend on a boat. Don't have cash to blow on a whim buying a boat with 1 hour of research and thought behind it. I will buy something, and will probably buy it at the shop that served me well. I have SOME free time, but also am busy, working a full time job and carrying a full time college course load in addition, as well as being married and squeezing spouse/family time in as well. So, just because it has been a few days since I had time to go to the shop last, does not mean I am a "tire kicker" who does not have the funds in the bank and the intention to buy. I actually have the cash in the bank to buy several boats, but choose to attempt to be wise with money rather than throwing it around aimlessly. Not that it matters, but I have no credit card debt either, so the boat will not be paid for with credit, but with cash. Doesn't this save the dealer a couple percent on CC fees alone? So, judge me as you will. The kayak shop has limited times available to demo a boat, I have limited times between school and work to demo, and I have other life activites going on too. So, there may be a couple of days or weeks between when I have time to stop in and talk, to demo, and to get down to the store to buy and pick up a boat. God forbid. Last I checked, my cash will be good whether I spend it the same day, or whether I come back in 3 weeks to get a boat. Also, unless I am mistaken, in a retail business selling a higher end or more complex product, and in a market where you have competitors, you as the owner or salesperson better have a thick enough skin to deal with customers of varying personality types, urgency levels, and negotiating style. To expect that clients are just going to line up outside your door like good little girls and boys, ready to pay full retail pop, and to keep their demands on your time down to a minimum, is laughable.
Also, if you read the entire thread, the prospect of making an offer once I have time to demo a boat and decide on the specific boat has been discussed. Will certainly do this. I don't remember ever stating that price was the #1 objective, or that I had decided on a specific boat to make an offer on. Take a deep breath.
Perhaps to satisfy those who feel that I should get a move on, next time I'll blindly walk into the shop and drop $3000 on the first boat I see so I don't inconvenience the shop or salesperson by actually doing any comparison shopping or analysis. I'll also make sure to call in sick from work or skip class so that I don't drag the process out more than an hour or so. ha ha...lol
education/age
Too funny. Would it be better to be old and undereducated? ;>) Nah, neither. Middle aged, and of average education. I AM getting older every day, so that will work itself out. I’ll try to make an effort to lower my education level and minimize independent thought for ya in the future, though. Excellent.
How did you know, may I ask, what truck you wanted without comparing to other trucks on the market? I would think anyone would certainly want to evaluate all options, and select the best one for themselves, after some sort of comparison process. Just blindly buying one kind of car because you had one in the past, and disregarding what other products are on the market that may or may not be superior is kind of shortsighted in my opinion, but hey, to each their own.
Sheesh
Ok, what started as a simple question and casual conversation has evolved into a major philosophical debate on life, apparently, with some people getting their panties in a bunch over nothing.
Some of the comments on this thread really crack me up. Most are insightful and useful.
For those that are all excited about the possibility that: (1) I might never buy a boat, throwing the world economy into chaos and putting my local dealer not only out of business but into clinical depression or (2) I might actually pay less than full MSRP, disrupting the galactic balance, creating a black hole which will suck the Earth into it or (3) I might not be able to complete my research and purchase process in some folks' definition of a timely manner, further exacerbating the issues of world hunger, climate change, and rising energy/food costs, not to mention the deficit...
Here is what is going to happen. Most of the insightful posts on this thread have merely served to confirm that what I probably would have done anyway is the right course of action. FIRST, I'll spend some time shopping for a boat, and rather than make a rash decision and buy the wrong boat, I'll put enough time and demoing into it to get a good match. The sales guy at my local shop was pretty adamant on this, telling me that the big mistake most people make is buying a boat too fast, and that he appreciated the kind of customer who takes enough time and effort to get the right boat, in his eyes these people make the best long term clients. SECOND, after narrowing down the couple of boats I am seriously considering down to one boat, I will shop around and see what kind of deals are out there. I'll figure the difference between MSRP and the lowest pricing that seems to be available, and see what that is. I'll then THIRD go down, have a chat with the guys at the local shop, and see if we can meet somewhere in between the two numbers to where we both feel like we did not get screwed, and we are both happy with it. I will certainly not buy the lowest cost boat and sell my dealer down the proverbial river only on price, and I will also probably not pay full list--if they can work with me at all on the boat or the likely paddle, PFD, etc that I will be buying, I'll go with those guys. Service is worth something, relationship is worth something, etc. There is likely a balance to be had here. Hopefully when I reach the pearly gates someday, the fact that I even whispered the notion of possibly not paying MSRP for something, and putting some effort and thought into a purchase, will not be cause for eternal damnation.
As far as timing, hey, maybe I miss part of the season. Not the end of the world, and I'll live. The thing keeping me busy right now is not the boat search, it is getting the last of my classes out of the way to graduate school in 6 mos or so, paying the mortgage, etc. A boat is in the cards, will be purchased, but is not a life and death decision and we'll all be fine, myself, the dealer, and all those on this thread whether I buy tomorrow or in a month. Take a deep breath, some of you. It will be OK.
Thanks again, all, for the wisdom of some of the posts, and the entertainment value of others. I think we've about beaten this horse to death. I'll post back with what I bought when I get time to seal the deal, for any who might be interested. Take it easy, all...
sirocco
Can you elaborate more on why you disliked the Sirocco?